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North East Buses Local Bus Scene Operations, Management & Infrastructure Bus Services Bill

Bus Services Bill

Bus Services Bill

 
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Tamesider



266
18 Aug 2016, 8:10 pm #52
(18 Aug 2016, 1:21 pm)G-CPTN A problem with democracy is that there is always a vocal minority that have unrealistic expectations, whether it be benefits or services.

Who wouldn't want free public transport serving every outlying settlement? - and not just once a week (there are inevitably residents who might be able to work or shop were such connections available).
Unfortunately, wherever there are people who take it into their own hands by buying a car for their own use this reduces the number of potential passengers available to make such services commercially viable (even subsidised services require a 'potential' revenue before the subsidy is granted).

Of course the corollary is that if there was universal frequent public service connections then people wouldn't provide their own transport (well, some would, inevitably, but they aren't those who would choose to use public transport regardless of the availability).
 

Trouble is with "democracy" in terms of transport is that no matter how vocal non-motorists are, nobody listens. Worse still, they have no lobby as those who you would think might be sympathetic increasingly deny their existance. On local news in the North West, the lead (non Olympics) story was about options for digging a road tunnel under the Peak District to reduce journey times between Manchester and Sheffield by 30 minutes. In it the CBT put up someone for interview stating that it should be a rail tunnel to take freight off the roads to ease things for the "long suffering motorist". No mention of non-motorists. Doubtless, the CBT (alongside supposedly left-wing Trade Unions) were the most vociferous in protesting about the Regulated Rail fare rise.

I do look forward to CBT, Unite or anyone appearing in the Media to discuss this Bus Services Bill....but I won't hold my breath. Closet Clarksons the lot of them.

As for your (perfectly reasonable) point about car ownership, it is noticable that car ownership in Greater Manchester has grew from about 83% of the national average in 1991 to 94% of the national average by 2011. Yes, most people will drive as soon as they can raise he money to "acquire" a car, but "most people" isn't everyone. For various reasons (though mainly wealth and/or health) millions of Adults in this country don't drive. However, if the money can be raised in the first place - and I get the impression most under 25s drivers aren't insured, so we are only really talking about buying the car as a fixed cost - basic Ecomonics states that you would never use buses anyway. The only exceptions being Greater London, and major city centres where you have to pay to park. Everywhere else, the economic benefits of car use (or even car/rail, off peak) has grown massively in the last 30 years. And that's where bus services still exist at something akin to pre-1986 in terms of frequency, punctuality and journey times.

The other problem is also, the uber-snobbish and utterly reprehensible stigma against bus users/usage. Which, I assume is based on the observation that you get a better class of Yob on trains. Only yesterday, I overheard a work colleague - whose general politics would be described as left of centre - stating he would never use buses because of the "sort of people who do use buses". He owns a car, but drives it to the nearest Station (in West Yorkshire) and catches the train everyday to his job.............promoting public transport in Greater Manchester! I hadn't the heart to interrupt him and remind him that I regularly use the bus. I can only assume his fellow passengers are the most genteel and sober rail users in the whole of the north of England, or he's been collecting horror stories about occasional incidents on buses.
Tamesider
18 Aug 2016, 8:10 pm #52

(18 Aug 2016, 1:21 pm)G-CPTN A problem with democracy is that there is always a vocal minority that have unrealistic expectations, whether it be benefits or services.

Who wouldn't want free public transport serving every outlying settlement? - and not just once a week (there are inevitably residents who might be able to work or shop were such connections available).
Unfortunately, wherever there are people who take it into their own hands by buying a car for their own use this reduces the number of potential passengers available to make such services commercially viable (even subsidised services require a 'potential' revenue before the subsidy is granted).

Of course the corollary is that if there was universal frequent public service connections then people wouldn't provide their own transport (well, some would, inevitably, but they aren't those who would choose to use public transport regardless of the availability).
 

Trouble is with "democracy" in terms of transport is that no matter how vocal non-motorists are, nobody listens. Worse still, they have no lobby as those who you would think might be sympathetic increasingly deny their existance. On local news in the North West, the lead (non Olympics) story was about options for digging a road tunnel under the Peak District to reduce journey times between Manchester and Sheffield by 30 minutes. In it the CBT put up someone for interview stating that it should be a rail tunnel to take freight off the roads to ease things for the "long suffering motorist". No mention of non-motorists. Doubtless, the CBT (alongside supposedly left-wing Trade Unions) were the most vociferous in protesting about the Regulated Rail fare rise.

I do look forward to CBT, Unite or anyone appearing in the Media to discuss this Bus Services Bill....but I won't hold my breath. Closet Clarksons the lot of them.

As for your (perfectly reasonable) point about car ownership, it is noticable that car ownership in Greater Manchester has grew from about 83% of the national average in 1991 to 94% of the national average by 2011. Yes, most people will drive as soon as they can raise he money to "acquire" a car, but "most people" isn't everyone. For various reasons (though mainly wealth and/or health) millions of Adults in this country don't drive. However, if the money can be raised in the first place - and I get the impression most under 25s drivers aren't insured, so we are only really talking about buying the car as a fixed cost - basic Ecomonics states that you would never use buses anyway. The only exceptions being Greater London, and major city centres where you have to pay to park. Everywhere else, the economic benefits of car use (or even car/rail, off peak) has grown massively in the last 30 years. And that's where bus services still exist at something akin to pre-1986 in terms of frequency, punctuality and journey times.

The other problem is also, the uber-snobbish and utterly reprehensible stigma against bus users/usage. Which, I assume is based on the observation that you get a better class of Yob on trains. Only yesterday, I overheard a work colleague - whose general politics would be described as left of centre - stating he would never use buses because of the "sort of people who do use buses". He owns a car, but drives it to the nearest Station (in West Yorkshire) and catches the train everyday to his job.............promoting public transport in Greater Manchester! I hadn't the heart to interrupt him and remind him that I regularly use the bus. I can only assume his fellow passengers are the most genteel and sober rail users in the whole of the north of England, or he's been collecting horror stories about occasional incidents on buses.

 
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Messages In This Thread
Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 18 May 2016, 12:04 pm
RE: Buses Bill - by Adrian - 19 May 2016, 12:26 pm
RE: Buses Bill - by eezypeazy - 19 May 2016, 12:34 pm
RE: Buses Bill - by Adrian - 19 May 2016, 1:19 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 20 May 2016, 9:19 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by citaro5284 - 24 May 2016, 6:18 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Greg in Weardale - 24 May 2016, 2:26 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 25 May 2016, 8:19 pm
Bus Services Bill - by cbma06 - 24 May 2016, 2:39 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 25 May 2016, 7:53 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 26 May 2016, 11:16 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 26 May 2016, 9:04 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by G-CPTN - 03 Jun 2016, 9:22 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by G-CPTN - 03 Jun 2016, 9:41 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 03 Jun 2016, 10:04 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Michael - 03 Jun 2016, 10:09 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 04 Jun 2016, 7:37 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 04 Jun 2016, 7:51 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by G-CPTN - 03 Jun 2016, 9:54 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Michael - 05 Jun 2016, 10:11 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 05 Jun 2016, 1:46 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by G-CPTN - 05 Jun 2016, 11:01 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Michael - 05 Jun 2016, 11:07 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 05 Jun 2016, 6:01 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Venturego - 08 Jun 2016, 4:06 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Dan - 12 Jun 2016, 12:33 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 12 Jun 2016, 1:34 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 12 Jun 2016, 5:28 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by eezypeazy - 13 Jun 2016, 2:12 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 15 Jul 2016, 9:01 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 18 Jul 2016, 5:00 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 16 Aug 2016, 6:47 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by G-CPTN - 16 Aug 2016, 10:41 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 16 Aug 2016, 8:18 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by eezypeazy - 16 Aug 2016, 10:59 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 16 Aug 2016, 4:46 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by eezypeazy - 17 Aug 2016, 8:30 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 17 Aug 2016, 8:58 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 17 Aug 2016, 7:42 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by eezypeazy - 17 Aug 2016, 1:09 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 18 Aug 2016, 9:11 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 18 Aug 2016, 7:39 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by G-CPTN - 18 Aug 2016, 1:21 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 18 Aug 2016, 8:10 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 18 Aug 2016, 8:02 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 19 Aug 2016, 12:15 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by eezypeazy - 19 Aug 2016, 1:15 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 19 Aug 2016, 2:24 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 21 Oct 2016, 3:07 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by eezypeazy - 19 Aug 2016, 2:44 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by GuyParkRoyal - 21 Oct 2016, 10:30 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 21 Oct 2016, 3:13 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 21 Oct 2016, 7:58 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 12 Nov 2016, 9:43 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 13 Nov 2016, 9:45 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 15 Nov 2016, 9:45 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 22 Dec 2016, 9:06 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 22 Dec 2016, 10:02 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 18 Jan 2017, 8:34 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 18 Jan 2017, 9:42 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 19 Jan 2017, 7:21 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 19 Jan 2017, 9:04 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 19 Jan 2017, 9:56 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 09 Feb 2017, 10:43 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 09 Feb 2017, 9:47 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 02 Mar 2017, 7:44 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 03 Mar 2017, 4:26 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 04 Apr 2017, 9:28 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by GX03 - 04 Apr 2017, 10:46 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 04 Apr 2017, 6:42 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 04 Apr 2017, 7:03 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by markydh - 04 Apr 2017, 10:34 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 04 Apr 2017, 11:00 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by GX03 - 04 Apr 2017, 11:29 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 04 Apr 2017, 7:56 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 04 Apr 2017, 8:19 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 18 Apr 2017, 7:35 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 26 Apr 2017, 1:27 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 26 Apr 2017, 8:07 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 28 Apr 2017, 8:50 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by markydh - 26 Apr 2017, 4:35 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 01 May 2017, 8:05 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 01 May 2017, 4:08 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 04 May 2017, 11:31 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Michael - 04 May 2017, 11:34 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 04 May 2017, 7:03 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 04 May 2017, 8:37 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 05 May 2017, 8:37 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 07 Aug 2017, 8:25 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 07 Aug 2017, 8:57 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 07 Aug 2017, 9:14 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 08 Aug 2017, 8:22 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 08 Aug 2017, 10:06 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 13 Dec 2017, 8:56 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 16 Dec 2017, 1:27 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 16 Feb 2018, 9:42 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by tyresmoke - 16 Feb 2018, 6:48 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 17 Feb 2018, 9:01 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 28 Feb 2018, 5:03 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 02 Mar 2018, 9:47 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 02 Mar 2018, 10:06 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 14 Jun 2018, 11:20 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 30 Jun 2018, 8:19 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by RobinHood - 01 Jul 2018, 3:23 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 01 Jul 2018, 3:57 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 02 Jul 2018, 11:36 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 16 Jul 2018, 4:06 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 16 Jul 2018, 8:32 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 12 Aug 2018, 2:57 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 12 Aug 2018, 3:17 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 12 Aug 2018, 3:25 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 12 Aug 2018, 8:32 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 12 Aug 2018, 9:08 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 12 Aug 2018, 10:04 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 13 Aug 2018, 8:29 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 13 Aug 2018, 8:53 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 15 Aug 2018, 3:42 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 16 Jul 2018, 9:22 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 15 Aug 2018, 6:33 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 28 Sep 2018, 7:41 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 10 Sep 2018, 11:37 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 11 Sep 2018, 7:21 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 12 Sep 2018, 9:16 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 01 Oct 2018, 3:35 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 01 Oct 2018, 8:06 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 01 Oct 2018, 8:43 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 01 Oct 2018, 9:08 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 01 Oct 2018, 9:40 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 03 Oct 2018, 10:54 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 03 Oct 2018, 2:18 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 03 Oct 2018, 3:21 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 07 Oct 2018, 9:20 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 07 Oct 2018, 1:42 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 08 Oct 2018, 6:46 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 08 Oct 2018, 6:53 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 17 Oct 2018, 12:04 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 17 Oct 2018, 8:00 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 18 Oct 2018, 9:41 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 21 Oct 2018, 3:55 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 22 Oct 2018, 11:58 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 22 Oct 2018, 9:54 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Stanleyone - 23 Oct 2018, 3:13 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 23 Oct 2018, 7:11 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 23 Oct 2018, 3:38 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 23 Oct 2018, 8:17 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 23 Oct 2018, 8:44 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 23 Oct 2018, 9:51 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 24 Oct 2018, 8:20 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 26 Oct 2018, 9:21 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 26 Oct 2018, 8:43 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 28 Oct 2018, 9:06 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 28 Oct 2018, 10:04 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 31 Oct 2018, 12:18 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 31 Oct 2018, 3:35 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 24 Oct 2018, 8:43 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by JM03 - 24 Oct 2018, 3:02 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 26 Oct 2018, 11:15 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 30 Oct 2018, 10:49 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 03 Nov 2018, 7:06 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 07 Nov 2018, 2:13 pm
Bus Services Bill - by cbma06 - 07 Nov 2018, 2:34 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 16 Nov 2018, 4:05 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Rob44 - 16 Nov 2018, 4:24 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 16 Nov 2018, 5:38 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 16 Nov 2018, 8:29 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 17 Nov 2018, 1:22 am
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Rob44 - 16 Nov 2018, 6:11 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Venturego - 26 Nov 2018, 8:02 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 26 Nov 2018, 8:32 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Tamesider - 08 Dec 2018, 9:41 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 28 Apr 2019, 7:55 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Adrian - 28 Apr 2019, 8:32 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 28 Apr 2019, 9:32 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 12 Jun 2019, 12:16 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by BusLoverMum - 28 Jun 2019, 6:39 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by James101 - 28 Jun 2019, 9:58 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by Andreos1 - 25 Jul 2019, 10:03 pm
RE: Bus Services Bill - by BusLoverMum - 28 Jul 2019, 12:42 pm
RE: Politics (and other political stuff) - by Andreos1 - 18 May 2016, 12:23 pm
RE: Politics (and other political stuff) - by Adrian - 18 May 2016, 3:39 pm
Buses Bill - by markydh - 18 May 2016, 11:03 pm
RE: Buses Bill - by eezypeazy - 19 May 2016, 8:40 am
RE: Politics (and other political stuff) - by Andreos1 - 19 May 2016, 7:31 am
RE: Quality Contracts - by Andreos1 - 29 May 2016, 6:35 pm
RE: Quality Contracts - by Adrian - 29 May 2016, 6:45 pm