(05 Feb 2021, 4:09 pm)Rapidsnap I'm sure Martijn mentioned that no operator is allowed to do mass network changes at the moment due to grants from the government towards the transport sector.

(05 Feb 2021, 1:33 pm)Dan Other operators are taking a different approach - I don't think anyone can deny (not even Andreos1!) that Go North East is focusing on improving the customer experience on-board their buses through significant investment (into new and refurbished vehicles), and having a big focus on marketing, in order to try and drive some growth. It isn't just a case of the company titivating and seeking mutual back-slapping from industry professionals. They have also avoided a 'traditional' fares increase for some time now, instead reducing fares or introducing better-value tickets (flexible weekly tickets, 24-hour tickets, or group tickets). If this results in growth - and it is a big if - then the extra revenue could be pumped back into the network, in order to improve the basic fundamentals, which Andreos1 suggests would drive better growth.

(05 Feb 2021, 4:57 pm)mb134 On this point, has the GNE policy changed (or will it) regarding refurbishments to second hand vehicles entering the fleet?

Not too relevant with Stagecoach NE as they rarely take in second hand stuff from other regions, but virtually all ANE second hand stock is treat to at least a good internal refurbishment. Take the initial batch of B7TLs from London, refurbed in 2014 to a high quality (if not high spec) standard - https://flic.kr/p/m33np1 , https://flic.kr/p/m33n6W. Contrast how fresh that looks to some of the Omnidekkas and the dual door B7s that GNE acquired for example (https://flic.kr/p/QxubjX). 

I know the argument will probably be that those deckers aren't intended for high profile work, however over the summer I had some of those B7s on what is now an X-Lines route, as well as Omnidekkas on the 309/310 (amongst others, just can't for the life of me remember what). If that's your first experience of a GNE bus, it really isn't a good one (especially if anyone was unlucky enough to get 6941). Obviously a punter getting on a brand new Streetdeck would be a better first experience than an Arriva Sapphire E400, for example, but the impression of something like 7484 pictured above would, in my view, be better than the equivalent replacements at GNE.

(05 Feb 2021, 4:57 pm)mb134 On this point, has the GNE policy changed (or will it) regarding refurbishments to second hand vehicles entering the fleet?

Not too relevant with Stagecoach NE as they rarely take in second hand stuff from other regions, but virtually all ANE second hand stock is treat to at least a good internal refurbishment. Take the initial batch of B7TLs from London, refurbed in 2014 to a high quality (if not high spec) standard - https://flic.kr/p/m33np1 , https://flic.kr/p/m33n6W. Contrast how fresh that looks to some of the Omnidekkas and the dual door B7s that GNE acquired for example (https://flic.kr/p/QxubjX). 

I know the argument will probably be that those deckers aren't intended for high profile work, however over the summer I had some of those B7s on what is now an X-Lines route, as well as Omnidekkas on the 309/310 (amongst others, just can't for the life of me remember what). If that's your first experience of a GNE bus, it really isn't a good one (especially if anyone was unlucky enough to get 6941). Obviously a punter getting on a brand new Streetdeck would be a better first experience than an Arriva Sapphire E400, for example, but the impression of something like 7484 pictured above would, in my view, be better than the equivalent replacements at GNE.

(05 Feb 2021, 5:05 pm)streetdeckfan Don't most of GNE's second hand acquisitions usually at least get re-upholstered into the blue moquette?

(05 Feb 2021, 5:07 pm)6049 In fairness though, have those OmniDekkas and B7s ever been acquired expressly for the purpose of being allocated to front line services? As far as I'm aware, they have generally all been acquired for and allocated to scholars or miscellaneous runs with maybe the odd peak time normal service run. If they end up on a branded route, it's usually down to a breakdown etc.



Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

(05 Feb 2021, 4:15 pm)Andreos1 At the minute it just feels like theres a huge, never ending re-brand going on - despite the product essentially being the same as it was 5, 10, 15+ years ago.
If Heinz re-packaged their tins and continued to re-package it on a regular basis, the punters would cotton on that it's still the same contents.
It's still the same 57 varieties - it just has a different label on the outside.

If they did that AND launched new products or variations of their 57 varieties, I'd hazard a guess the punters would be a bit more impressed.

'Beans (substitute this for any number bus) don't do it for me anymore. I'll try something else instead, I know, spaghetti hoops (substitute spaghetti hoops for a car)'.

*Two weeks later after Heinz see bean sales are going down and change the font on the label and print it in a different colour... *

'oh these look different, I'll try them. They might be better than they used to be.
Oh, they're exactly the same. Nothing has changed at all. I'll go back to the hoops (car)'.

• services X70/X71 upgraded from ex-London Volvo B9 with lacklustre quality seating to brand new, Euro 6 double-deck buses, with more comfortable seats, tables, next stop announcements, wireless/USB charging points (and previous free Wi-Fi offering still maintained)
  
• due to the above, services 93/94 upgraded from aged Scania L94s to double-deck Volvo B9, with free Wi-Fi and next stop announcements (a first for these routes).
  
• services X45/X46/X47 upgraded from Wright Streetlites to brand new, Euro 6 buses, crucially double-deck instead of the previous single-deck to offer passengers a more comfortable journey during busier periods, with all the same (and better) mod-cons than the previous buses.
  
• service X20 upgraded from Optare Solo SRs to Wright Streetlites, offering more space than the previous buses allocated.
  
• service 35 upgraded from Scania L94s to Mercedes Citaros, bringing Wi-Fi, USB charging points and next stop announcements to this route for the first time.
  
• service X1 upgraded from Volvo B9 to brand new Euro 6 double-decks, with all the same (and better) features than the previous buses, including tables and charging points.
  
• due to the above, services 26/27 upgraded from single-deck to refurbished double-deck Volvo B9, offering better capacity to passengers on this route during busier periods, and quality internally.
  
• services X9/X10 upgraded from buses to more purpose-built coaches
  
• buses on service 4 given a light refurbishment due to 'below-par' quality standards
  
• buses on service 56 given a light refurbishment due to 'below-par' quality standards
  

(05 Feb 2021, 5:11 pm)mb134 The B7s certainly didn't appear to have had any sort of internal attention last I was on one. The Omnidekkas I got on over the summer were in blue "Go" trim, but I've had several still with the red fabric since the first ones moved up here.

---

Even if they haven't, it doesn't give a fantastic impression to potential customers. Think of all the school kids who are using them on scholars, will they want to travel on something like that to work when they leave school, or will they opt for the car? Think of all the times they've been used on Metro replacements. Think of all the times they *have* been used on front line service work.

(05 Feb 2021, 5:20 pm)Dan Nice analogy, and perhaps the best points you've made in this debate yet... but the point you're missing is that the beans (bus) are actually better than they used to be.

Through all the upgrades undertaken over the last 12 months the product has improved (albeit mainly just better comfort and quality):

• services X70/X71 upgraded from ex-London Volvo B9 with lacklustre quality seating to brand new, Euro 6 double-deck buses, with more comfortable seats, tables, next stop announcements, wireless/USB charging points (and previous free Wi-Fi offering still maintained)
  
• due to the above, services 93/94 upgraded from aged Scania L94s to double-deck Volvo B9, with free Wi-Fi and next stop announcements (a first for these routes).
  
• services X45/X46/X47 upgraded from Wright Streetlites to brand new, Euro 6 buses, crucially double-deck instead of the previous single-deck to offer passengers a more comfortable journey during busier periods, with all the same (and better) mod-cons than the previous buses.
  
  
• service X20 upgraded from Optare Solo SRs to Wright Streetlites, offering more space than the previous buses allocated.
  
• service 35 upgraded from Scania L94s to Mercedes Citaros, bringing Wi-Fi, USB charging points and next stop announcements to this route for the first time.
  
• service X1 upgraded from Volvo B9 to brand new Euro 6 double-decks, with all the same (and better) features than the previous buses, including tables and charging points.
  
• due to the above, services 26/27 upgraded from single-deck to refurbished double-deck Volvo B9, offering better capacity to passengers on this route during busier periods, and quality internally.
  
• services X9/X10 upgraded from buses to more purpose-built coaches
  
• buses on service 4 given a light refurbishment due to 'below-par' quality standards
  
• buses on service 56 given a light refurbishment due to 'below-par' quality standards
  

[*]All of this cannot just be dismissed, as it is being currently. These are very clear benefits and improvements to passengers, which, when paired with better/cheaper ticketing options (unlike other operators, Go North East hasn't increased the price of its tickets - Stagecoach and Arriva still undertook the same traditional fares increase, when Go North East decided to reduce fares and introduce new tickets) and better cleaning regimes (which we should all hope remain in place, post-COVID), do provide a better quality product than what was offered previously.

I really am not dismissing your point about network improvements, and I do agree that more can and should be done, but I go back to what I have alluded several times now... Is it best that operators take the 'do nothing' approach and make no network improvements (because they can't afford to) or do they try and improve the product through a cheaper method in order to drive growth and build the route back in order to allow them to make network improvements?

(05 Feb 2021, 4:57 pm)mb134 On this point, has the GNE policy changed (or will it) regarding refurbishments to second hand vehicles entering the fleet?

Not too relevant with Stagecoach NE as they rarely take in second hand stuff from other regions, but virtually all ANE second hand stock is treat to at least a good internal refurbishment. Take the initial batch of B7TLs from London, refurbed in 2014 to a high quality (if not high spec) standard - https://flic.kr/p/m33np1 , https://flic.kr/p/m33n6W. Contrast how fresh that looks to some of the Omnidekkas and the dual door B7s that GNE acquired for example (https://flic.kr/p/QxubjX). 

I know the argument will probably be that those deckers aren't intended for high profile work, however over the summer I had some of those B7s on what is now an X-Lines route, as well as Omnidekkas on the 309/310 (amongst others, just can't for the life of me remember what). If that's your first experience of a GNE bus, it really isn't a good one (especially if anyone was unlucky enough to get 6941). Obviously a punter getting on a brand new Streetdeck would be a better first experience than an Arriva Sapphire E400, for example, but the impression of something like 7484 pictured above would, in my view, be better than the equivalent replacements at GNE.

(05 Feb 2021, 5:11 pm)mb134 The B7s certainly didn't appear to have had any sort of internal attention last I was on one. The Omnidekkas I got on over the summer were in blue "Go" trim, but I've had several still with the red fabric since the first ones moved up here - bit of further digging and it seems that most ran with red moquette from arrival in the NE until around 2018.

---

Even if they haven't, it doesn't give a fantastic impression to potential customers. Think of all the school kids who are using them on scholars, will they want to travel on something like that to work when they leave school, or will they opt for the car? Think of all the times they've been used on Metro replacements. Think of all the times they *have* been used on front line service work.

Just for you though, here's one fully route branded with that red moquette: https://flic.kr/p/EeRazZ.

(05 Feb 2021, 5:25 pm)6049 If you're acquiring a bus towards the end of it's life expressly for the purpose of using it on scholar's then where is the incentive to spend any money on them? It's a business at the end of the day, it has to make a profit and to be honest how many times are parents going to be that bothered about the bus their child travels other than is I safe to be on the road and will it get them to and from school on time?

I accept your point on Metro Replacements that they don't give a great impressions, but in all honesty again, where is the incentive to spend money on them when Nexus primarily operate on cheapest bid wins. If you're spending money to make them look good you're just decreasing your margins.

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

(05 Feb 2021, 5:28 pm)Michael [*]

Shame that is only temporary on the X20 though, I think the X-Lines brand would suit a Streetlite.

(05 Feb 2021, 5:30 pm)Dan That, or operators factor into the cost of their bid the cost of undertaking significant refurbishment work, coming at the expense of the taxpayer (I'm sure that wouldn't be popular, either!)

(05 Feb 2021, 5:37 pm)6049 It wouldn't surprise me if eventually they do move to X-Lines branding on the StreetLites for this service if they are retained on the X20 post-COVID (whenever that might be). Might be a few years down the line though as they are highly unlikely to repaint buses which haven't long been repainted anyway - they're pretty much X-Line standard anyway apart from the paint job.

Sent from my SM-G981B using Tapatalk

---

(05 Feb 2021, 5:30 pm)Dan The dual-door buses were re-trimmed into Go-Ahead London's moquette shortly before being acquired, which was one of the main reasons nothing was ever done with them. They were, and still are, in very good condition. 

The Scania OmniDekkas on the other hand were incredibly poor quality, but, as normal, were rushed out into service as quickly as possible, due to the business requirements at the time. There was a long-term project to re-trim the seats in all the Scania OmniDekkas on a rolling basis. 

Cannot deny that the quality of the refurbishment on Arriva's pre-owned vehicles is sublime - alas the downside to this is that the cost of the refurbishment (including centre-door conversion) would have been more than the cost of the bus, and as such they're probably lumbered with those buses for many years to come now (whereas Go North East's examples are close to being fully depreciated so could, in theory, be easily disposed of, should newer stock become available).

The first 57-plate ex-B&H OmniDekka is due back from repaint next week - I wonder how the interior will be presented?

As much as I'd love to agree with you on scholars being the 'customers of the future', unfortunately I'd have to disagree in this instance as very few show any kind of regard for the buses that they're using. Most vandalise them.


That, or operators factor into the cost of their bid the cost of undertaking significant refurbishment work, coming at the expense of the taxpayer (I'm sure that wouldn't be popular, either!)

(05 Feb 2021, 5:54 pm)mb134 I wonder if that vandalism is because they see the buses as a bit rough around the edges anyways? I can't speak from much experience, as my bus to school was a normal public service, but generally back when I caught the bus to school there was little to no vandalism. That said we were on, at the time, end of life Olympians and then DAF DB250s so I can't imagine they were immaculate either.

(05 Feb 2021, 6:00 pm)Dan I don't think so. Some of the scholars services that Consett Depot operates interwork with the X-lines services (which are all new double-decks) and these have been vandalised multiple times.

(05 Feb 2021, 5:30 pm)Dan The dual-door buses were re-trimmed into Go-Ahead London's moquette shortly before being acquired, which was one of the main reasons nothing was ever done with them. They were, and still are, in very good condition. The second reason being that they were only ever acquired for the Tall Ships event, and remained in the fleet due to the fact Go North East were awarded a sizeable number of scholars contracts in July to commence operation in September (despite there being a large volume of work, such as the Sunderland Airshow, for these vehicles to be allocated to, between award of the contracts and their commencement).

The Scania OmniDekkas on the other hand were incredibly poor quality, but, as normal, were rushed out into service as quickly as possible, due to the business requirements at the time. There was a long-term project to re-trim the seats in all the Scania OmniDekkas on a rolling basis. All bar 6122 were completed (this one intentionally not being done due to it being the oldest in the batch, and planned for withdrawal this year).

Cannot deny that the quality of the refurbishment on Arriva's pre-owned vehicles is sublime - alas the downside to this is that the cost of the refurbishment (including centre-door conversion) would have been more than the cost of the bus, and as such they're probably lumbered with those buses for many years to come now (whereas Go North East's examples are close to being fully depreciated so could, in theory, be easily disposed of, should newer stock become available).

The first 57-plate ex-B&H OmniDekka is due back from repaint next week - I wonder how the interior will be presented?

As much as I'd love to agree with you on scholars being the 'customers of the future', unfortunately I'd have to disagree in this instance as very few show any kind of regard for the buses that they're using. Most vandalise them.


That, or operators factor into the cost of their bid the cost of undertaking significant refurbishment work, coming at the expense of the taxpayer (I'm sure that wouldn't be popular, either!)

(05 Feb 2021, 6:05 pm)Michael Wonder how long the Duel door deckers have left in service?

(05 Feb 2021, 6:00 pm)Dan I don't think so. Some of the scholars services that Consett Depot operates interwork with the X-lines services (which are all new double-decks) and these have been vandalised multiple times.

(05 Feb 2021, 6:08 pm)Dan As soon as the 60x school duplicates are no longer required, certainly all of the 54-plate examples will be withdrawn.