(05 Aug 2020, 12:33 pm)Andreos1 Nights out needing a taxi back? Shift workers finishing or starting between operating hours? One way trips to the airport or railway station? Visiting a 'friend' or friend and stopping the night? Lack of Sunday or evening services rendering a 24 hour ticket worthless? 

Just a few examples off the top of my head. There will be many more. 

Now if those people could find an alternative methods of transport over the bus, before covid19, then what on earth would attract them to public transport now? Cheaper tickets perhaps? Just a thought... Or a shrug of the shoulder and acceptance that numbers are going to drop?

Tesco sell their nearly out of date bread for 10p if it means some money in the till. If they sell 10 of those loaves, even better! 
Far from saying operators need to sell tickets for 10p, maybe they need to look at how an ignored market can make them some money. Some money is better than no money.

(05 Aug 2020, 1:48 pm)Ambassador But those are the Customers you need to attract or you'll never grow. 

Most bus users are on the bus because there is no other option. It's a captive market in that sense. What you need to do is attract the 'on the way to the Fell or Durham or a pint' types who will spend and maybe begin to use your bus regularly on a weekend to go for a pint.

No amount of bus lanes or priority traffic management will help with that. It's got to be cost effective before you even think about bragging about anything else

(05 Aug 2020, 2:12 pm)streetdeckfan But the thing is, Tesco are selling the bread for 10p because if they don't they have to pay to get rid of it. It's cheaper to give it away than it is to keep it.
In a service industry, things like that don't exist.
The closest they could get is offering things like the evening ticket with reduced fares after 7pm, the buses are running anyway, so even at a reduced fare it's more money.

If you're buying a single ticket, chances are you're not going very far since it'd just be along one route, otherwise it'd probably be cheaper getting a day ticket if you have to change. In that case, it'll be cheaper getting the bus than a taxi.

The only thing I could really see them doing is having a group ticket that you can use throughout the day rather than evenings, as it's usually when you travel in a group that a taxi works out cheaper

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But they aren't going to be buying a single, if they're going out for a pint, they'll want to get home, presumably the same day or at least before 3am, when day tickets expire. 
I suppose, if they allowed day tickets to be used on nightbus services they might attract more customers

(05 Aug 2020, 2:12 pm)streetdeckfan But the thing is, Tesco are selling the bread for 10p because if they don't they have to pay to get rid of it. It's cheaper to give it away than it is to keep it.
In a service industry, things like that don't exist.
The closest they could get is offering things like the evening ticket with reduced fares after 7pm, the buses are running anyway, so even at a reduced fare it's more money.

If you're buying a single ticket, chances are you're not going very far since it'd just be along one route, otherwise it'd probably be cheaper getting a day ticket if you have to change. In that case, it'll be cheaper getting the bus than a taxi.

The only thing I could really see them doing is having a group ticket that you can use throughout the day rather than evenings, as it's usually when you travel in a group that a taxi works out cheaper

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But they aren't going to be buying a single, if they're going out for a pint, they'll want to get home, presumably the same day or at least before 3am, when day tickets expire. 
I suppose, if they allowed day tickets to be used on nightbus services they might attract more customers

(05 Aug 2020, 3:55 pm)Andreos1 A bus before 3am when the tickets expire? Aye, cos there's a boat load of buses kicking around at 3am...
It's hard enough getting a bus beyond 11pm in most places, never mind 3am, so the chances of the majority getting a bus back is slim to nil simply due to last orders.

The point about tesco is that they're taking money for stock left on their shelves. 
If seats on buses equate to opportunities to make money (just like that bread), then you can see how lower fares could attract customers.

Do you continue to price the seats/bread at a price that isn't very attractive or do you adapt the price and see demand increasing?

As ambassador said, those people who could pay one way to the pub, but don't - are the people that bus operators want to make a modal switch.
A 21 to Low Fell and an N21 back would tick a fare few boxes. 
As it is, a taxi there and back for a group is probably cheaper. So not only do GNE lose out on the 21 fare, but they lose out on the N21 fare too.
Even if the N21 wasn't operating, a group heading out and paying x per head, can make all sorts of difference to the viability of a route. 
Charging those group of 5, a pound a pop makes more difference to the GNE coffers than it does having the same group sitting in a taxi and adding to the traffic delays along the way.
Add in the fact that the average 21 on a pre-covid 19 Friday night heading in to Newcastle, is overtaken by half a dozen taxis on the way...

That patter about not going far, sums up how far removed from real-life, ignorant or niaeve some of the posts on this forum really are.
'It doesn't apply to me, so doesn't exist' mentality. I often wonder if the powers that be within the operators are of the same mindset.
Sorry to hark on about my own experiences, rather than yours on the X21, but I used to do an absolute boat load of work in Glasgow. The (approx) 18:25 North from Durham was my go to. Paying what I did per mile for my single trip on the 20s made me change how I got to the station.
You're right in what you say about the journey not being far. It made the cost per mile even worse.

(05 Aug 2020, 11:09 pm)BusLoverMum Did the 24 hour tickets go the journey, then?

(06 Aug 2020, 8:07 am)streetdeckfan I don't disagree with you there, that's exactly what they've done introducing the evening and group tickets. Some money is better than no money, and like you say, it reduces the traffic they have to get through on a night.

Perhaps it's because I grew up with everyone in my family running businesses and studied business management, but I personally don't have an issue paying more per mile for a shorter journey. That's the economies of scale. It's the same way a 500ml bottle of Pepsi can cost you £1.10 in Tesco, but a 1.15l bottle is only 5p more.  


It's still available on the app, although all mention of it seems to have disappeared from the website!

(06 Aug 2020, 9:34 am)Andreos1 Excellent. Would you be able to share your knowledge on economies of scale in relation to bus fares on buses. Say the 20 on the following stages? Durham - Belmont, Durham - Houghton, Durham - Sunderland and Durham - Shields.
Keen to read your insights and thoughts on this and how economy of scale applies to these fares. Particularly singles

(06 Aug 2020, 10:43 am)Rob44 If they lowered the single price how do you know that the price decrease wouldnt lead to 5 more bums on seat for that journey meaning their income would actually RISE?!

(06 Aug 2020, 10:43 am)Rob44 If they lowered the single price how do you know that the price decrease wouldnt lead to 5 more bums on seat for that journey meaning their income would actually RISE?!

(06 Aug 2020, 10:11 am)streetdeckfan Im sure I've said this before, but it's the people paying the higher, single prices that allow the day/week/monthly tickets to be lower. If they lowered the price of the single tickets, income would go down, and they'd have to recover that some way.

There are some fees that don't go away no matter how short the journey, card fees are ahold example these days. One larger transaction is going to be cheaper than several small transactions that add up to the same value.

If you disagree with me, I'd be genuinely interested in your view on it

Sent from my LM-G710 using Tapatalk

(06 Aug 2020, 10:53 am)tyresmoke You'd need a lot more than 5 extra people to make up for the lost income. The main reason for single fares being so high is down to concessionary reimbursement being based on the average fare. 

(06 Aug 2020, 11:44 am)Andreos1 Or (bearing in mind tyresmokes post below), it creates a perception that the day, week or month tickets are better value than they actually are? 

It still doesn't change the fact, that the market can't and will not grow, taking in to account those potential customers who can get to/from their destination quicker and cheaper using alternative means. 
There's a natural limit on any bus corridor by virtue of the number of people living in that area. 

You mention business management. Presumably you are aware of PESTEL/PESTLE and SWOT? Maybe it's worth you doing a pestle or basic swot analysis of the 20 route (including X20). Including fares, frequency, vehicle allocations and the times it starts to run off for the evening. 
I would be interested to see your findings. 


I've mentioned that several times. It seems to go straight over people's heads...

(06 Aug 2020, 12:47 pm)Rob44 320 for a under 6 mile journey to town is expensive in my view. if it was say £2 flat fare i for one would use it more. And ive said it before get me a bus pass that cost me £1 per day and i'll sell my car on autotrader and use the bus ( even though id have to get up earlier and get in later) to get to work. So if im up for that im sure other would be

(06 Aug 2020, 1:44 pm)Rob44 I work 4 days out of five Monday to Friday and on the day off i doubt id have any reason to use the bus, so that would be around 3.16 per day. I work every Sunday but start at 730am when most GNE buses are tucket up in the garage so on that day i'd have to use the car.. I could use it when the football is back up and running but that I would need a network all zone pass which i believe is about £90 a month?

it might be to you but not to me or the many thousands of punters who've deserted the bus over the last several years.

(06 Aug 2020, 12:11 pm)streetdeckfan Quite frankly, I'd rather not, but I can see the point you're trying to make, I just happen to disagree that reducing the pricing would make enough of a difference to get more passengers. Although I do wonder whether GNE removing the ability to check single/return prices from the website was a conscious decision rather than it just being down to them changing platform like they made it out to be...

I don't think they're keeping single prices high to make give the impression other tickets are better value, and I don't necessarily think single tickets are /that/ expensive. Sure, they're perhaps not the best value out there, but they're not outrageous. 

I personally think the main issue with the single ticket pricing is the fare stages. You can travel several miles and stay within a fare stage, and pay less than £2, or you can travel one stop, but pass over a 'border' and be charged double. I can't remember who it was, but I think travelling from Birtley to CLS was an issue for pricing?

(07 Aug 2020, 11:32 am)Storx Seen a lot of discussion here about prices but why not do the best of the both worlds and have an off-peak / peak fares. Keep the current pricing say between 6am - 9am and 4pm and 6pm Mon - Fri then if you travel outside these times have some form of special ticket at £2 (or less) for any single with an off peak day ticket at £3.50 throughout the whole network.

It promotes people onto the buses when they're at their quietest when most people are likely to want the singles, going to the train station, going to the pub etc. It's the best of both worlds imo. Might promote a few people who otherwise wouldn't use the bus but most commuters will still be on their usual weekly / montly tickets since you can't use them at peak times.

It's pretty much how any other form of industry / travel works.

(07 Aug 2020, 11:32 am)Storx Seen a lot of discussion here about prices but why not do the best of the both worlds and have an off-peak / peak fares. Keep the current pricing say between 6am - 9am and 4pm and 6pm Mon - Fri then if you travel outside these times have some form of special ticket at £2 (or less) for any single with an off peak day ticket at £3.50 throughout the whole network.

It promotes people onto the buses when they're at their quietest when most people are likely to want the singles, going to the train station, going to the pub etc. It's the best of both worlds imo. Might promote a few people who otherwise wouldn't use the bus but most commuters will still be on their usual weekly / montly tickets since you can't use them at peak times.

It's pretty much how any other form of industry / travel works.

(07 Aug 2020, 1:02 pm)Andreos1 I think they tried that on the X23 when coaches were allocated. There were a couple of pricing tiers if I