(30 Oct 2023, 12:32 pm)Andreos1 wrote What's that 777 route? Can't remember that mind. 
Aware the PTE maps weren't always the most accurate, but that's a new one on me.

Very short lived.

By January 1987, it was replaced by this:



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(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)Adrian wrote Here's a rough sketch of the 50 route:

I actually laughed out loud to that.

That could actually be an old Washington Street Shuttle route

(30 Oct 2023, 1:00 pm)MurdnunoC wrote Very short lived.

By January 1987, it was replaced by this:



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Convinced I was using the 777 to/from Vigo Lane before those dates.

Shows how the mind can play tricks on you.

I think that washington needs more buses because there are quite a lot of areas cut off:

If you compare the current GNE network to 2003:

Albany: Moorway Unserved (Was also in 2003), Also had frequency reductions.
Ayton: Down from 5bph to 3bph.
Armstrong: Down from 5bph to 3bph.
Barmston: Horsley Road (South End) unserved, Down from 8bph to 3bph.
Barmston Court: Down from 3bph to 1bph.
Blackfell: Only 1bph along Knoulberry Road, Down from 7bph to 3bph.
Biddick: Parkway Unserved, Down from 9bph to 5bph.
Cherry Blossom Way: Served by 1bpd.
Columbia: Down from 5bph to 3bph.
Coach Road Estate: 4bph to 1bph.
Concord: Seems ok but has had frequency reductions.
Crowther: Completely Unserved.
Donwell: No direct buses from Wellbank Road or Bluebell to the galleries. Down from 9bph to 5bph.
Fatfield: Down from 12bph to 8bph.
Glebe: Down from 12bph to 6bph.
Glover: Unserved (Except 939 & 1 56 per day).
Lambton: Cambrian Way Unserved, Down from 8bph to 5bph
Oxclose: Down from 7bph to 3bph
Harraton: Bonemill Lane Unserved, Down from 10bph to 6bph
Rickleton: Rickleton Way Unserved, Down from 9bph to 4bph
Stephenson: Completely Unserved
Sulgrave: Station Road North and Waterloo Road Unserved, Down from 8bph to 6bph (Only 2bph to Galleries).
Teal Farm: No direct buses to Concord Down from 4bph to 3bph
Waterview Park: No direct buses to Concord, Down from 8bph to 3bph.

BPH: Bus(es) per hour.
BPD: Bus(es) per day.

(30 Oct 2023, 1:41 pm)Andreos1 wrote Convinced I was using the 777 to/from Vigo Lane before those dates.

Shows how the mind can play tricks on you.

You were right. According to my March 1985 Timetable book, a 777 ran from Chester to Sunderland via Vigo Lane!

(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)MurdnunoC wrote And because of my natural proclivity to provide a historical perspective. Here are some maps covering Newcastle and Gateshead from 1981 and 1986 respectively







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(Re-edited because the images sent from Tapatalk weren't the best)

This looks like hub and spoke to me????

(30 Oct 2023, 2:56 pm)DeltaMan wrote You were right. According to my March 1985 Timetable book, a 777 ran from Chester to Sunderland via Vigo Lane!

Feel like someone is having a laugh here like.

---

(30 Oct 2023, 4:09 pm)Rob44 wrote This looks like hub and spoke to me????

Those early maps had far more spokes by my reckoning.

(30 Oct 2023, 4:09 pm)Rob44 wrote This looks like hub and spoke to me????

I never claimed otherwise.

However, you'll see on both maps that the spokes are connected through other services. In the Newcastle example, we have the 49 (deemed as the 'Outerline', I think the 41 was deemed as the 'Innerline', IIRC) connecting Throckley with West Denton, Kingston Park, Gosforth, Heaton before heading towards Wallsend.

In Gateshead, you had services like the 616/617 which connected Blaydon with the West End of Newcastle, largely because of the employment offered by Stella Ppwer Station, at the time. Or the 715 which connected Rowlands Gill with Burnopfield and Stanley.

Those maps weren't intended to prove or disprove anything, but to provide a little bit of historical perspective on how thr network looked around 40 years ago (rounded up before anyone claims it was 37 years ago, and not 40).

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(30 Oct 2023, 4:35 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I never claimed otherwise.

However, you'll see on both maps that the spokes are connected through other services. In the Newcastle example, we have the 49 (deemed as the 'Outerline', I think the 41 was deemed as the 'Innerline', IIRC) connecting Throckley with West Denton, Kingston Park, Gosforth, Heaton before heading towards Wallsend.

In Gateshead, you had services like the 616/617 which connected Blaydon with the West End of Newcastle, largely because of the employment offered by Stella Ppwer Station, at the time. Or the 715 which connected Rowlands Gill with Burnopfield and Stanley.

Those maps weren't intended to prove or disprove anything, but to provide a little bit of historical perspective on how thr network looked around 40 years ago (rounded up before anyone claims it was 37 years ago, and not 40).

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Its a shame a similar map on now isnt available  When I thnk of the buses that went along scotswood road when it had the houses/ factories  and pubs!!  No business park or metro centre then.

.

(30 Oct 2023, 4:49 pm)Rob44 wrote Its a shame a similar map on now isnt available  When I thnk of the buses that went along scotswood road when it had the houses/ factories  and pubs!!  No business park or metro centre then.

.

I agree

But while Stagecoach's network changes at an almost glacial pace, GNE's seems to alter whenever the weather changes.

So any map produced by Nexus will be probably be outdated when published.

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(30 Oct 2023, 5:26 pm)MurdnunoC wrote I agree

But while Stagecoach's network changes at an almost glacial pace, GNE's seems to alter whenever the weather changes.

So any map produced by Nexus will be probably be outdated when published.

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its as if GNE management don't have a clue what they are doing???

(30 Oct 2023, 6:12 pm)Rob44 wrote its as if GNE management don't have a clue what they are doing???

Well it has been questioned on here many, many times and with all of the numbers and evidence seeming to back that up...
Members on here could be correct in their thinking.

(30 Oct 2023, 6:12 pm)Rob44 wrote its as if GNE management don't have a clue what they are doing???

(30 Oct 2023, 6:38 pm)Andreos1 wrote Well it has been questioned on here many, many times and with all of the numbers and evidence seeming to back that up...
Members on here could be correct in their thinking.

On the contrary. I think they've known exactly what they're doing. 

When the rationalisation project really went full throttle in the mid-2000s, it was almost a carbon copy of the LEAN methodology that multi-nationals and the public sector like to buy in to. Claims to be customer focused, but in reality it's about business optimisation, cost-reduction, getting full utilisation out of the workforce and other resources, and maximising profit. 

In the short-term, it probably worked very well, in that everything was focused on a smaller portfolio of profitable routes, with the lesser profitable being carved away at over the next five years or so, in an attempt to maintain that profit baseline. It's probably after that point that things started to completely lose direction. The architect of that project leaving, then being ran without real direction for years after that. When they should have been continuously improving (as LEAN would put it), they were instead resorting to rearranging the deckchairs; e.g. North Sunderland estates. 

Everyone's favourite Best Impressions enthusiast then took over the helm for a short while. He gets more criticism than probably warrants, but at least he tried to take steer with a positive outlook and grow the business; say what you want about the cheap fares, Xlines, coaches on the X10 etc, but it was the kind of bold thinking we'd been missing for the past decade, though he was dealt a pretty poor hand with COVID. 

I've no doubt there's still some bold thinkers and people full of ideas over at Bensham, but like in any organisation, those talents are wasted when they're harboured behind clowns like Featham and Maxfield.

(30 Oct 2023, 8:19 pm)Adrian wrote I've no doubt there's still some bold thinkers and people full of ideas over at Bensham, but like in any organisation, those talents are wasted when they're harboured behind clowns like Featham and Maxfield.

But North of the River, Featham did stabilise the Arriva Northumbria business after a whacky period between 2007 (end of Steve Noble) and 2011/12.

Hopefully if GNE can sort their driver recruitment and retention siutation out, hopefully NF can have the same impact at GNE.

Likewise, if Martijn attempted what he did 15 year back (back in the Peter Huntley era), it probably would've worked. But what was needed coming out of the pandemic was totally different.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-be...e-67241888

Interesting.
Mayor is being inundated with requests from other council leaders.

https://x.com/alexhornbybus/status/17204...41600?s=20 definately helping passengers feel more confident with longer support from staff, wish companies down here did the same!

For an upstart bus operator, how much money realistically would they need to run a hourly service mon to fri with a PVR of 2 including fuel and vehicle purchase. I'm thinking between 400 and 500k a year, would I be correct?

(08 Nov 2023, 11:33 am)ASX_Terranova wrote For an upstart bus operator, how much money realistically would they need to run a hourly service mon to fri with a PVR of 2 including fuel and vehicle purchase. I'm thinking between 400 and 500k a year, would I be correct?

You'd have to work out the variables first. There's more, but the immediate ones that come to mind are; how much you're paying your drivers, how much you're paying for fuel, how much fuel you use and the wear and tear of the vehicle. Purchase price is one thing, but you've got to keep it in a roadworthy condition.

You've also got costs outside of the route you're running, if you're an upstart. e.g. where you're storing the buses (rent, energy, water, business rates)

(08 Nov 2023, 11:33 am)ASX_Terranova wrote For an upstart bus operator, how much money realistically would they need to run a hourly service mon to fri with a PVR of 2 including fuel and vehicle purchase. I'm thinking between 400 and 500k a year, would I be correct?

Assuming you already have a bus (one off cost otherwise), big operators are probably somewhere around £150,000 per annum direct cost per bus, with another £50,000 indirect/overhead contribution required to be worthwhile.

Obv a smaller operator won't have as significant overheads and may therefore have lower indirect costs, but conversely may pay more for fuel or maintenance (won't be getting the volume discounts that big operators can), so it probably evens out somewhat.

Say £130k direct costs +£20k indirect needed before any profit made, or £600 a day to break even if weekday only. Public transport really isn't high margins.

Went to the metro the other night, my friend drivers but hes at Uni (i still havent got around to getting a car but my commute is only 20 mins by bus so not bothered atm, but most of the time I get a lift) So I went to his and we decided to go to the Metro it was awful, absoutely awful, full of kids (yes not anything Buses can do about it) but what really was the turn off was the bus station, kids were running around throwing pop at each other (they should have been made to clean it up) shouting, screaming, fighting next to people walking, absoltuely no staff just some tape for the taped off areas (whcih did little to stop the vile youths).

And the bus back into the City Centre was awful, bell ringning none stop for no one to get off, kids screaming, no wonder peopel would rather use the car, even just a short hop, I think we will get an Uber next time.

Something needs to be done about this abhorant behaviour by vile youths if they want public transport to succeed, people have to feel safe using it, and if im being honest on an evening I do not.

What happened to Metro Watch? It was meant to stop all that behaviour

https://youtu.be/G2Orlo-aumU?si=a_b-_nmzdT0nKa_S

(29 Dec 2023, 9:59 pm)Unber43 wrote Went to the metro the other night, my friend drivers but hes at Uni (i still havent got around to getting a car but my commute is only 20 mins by bus so not bothered atm, but most of the time I get a lift) So I went to his and we decided to go to the Metro it was awful, absoutely awful, full of kids (yes not anything Buses can do about it) but what really was the turn off was the bus station, kids were running around throwing pop at each other (they should have been made to clean it up) shouting, screaming, fighting next to people walking, absoltuely no staff just some tape for the taped off areas (whcih did little to stop the vile youths).

And the bus back into the City Centre was awful, bell ringning none stop for no one to get off, kids screaming, no wonder peopel would rather use the car, even just a short hop, I think we will get an Uber next time.

Something needs to be done about this abhorant behaviour by vile youths if they want public transport to succeed, people have to feel safe using it, and if im being honest on an evening I do not.

This is an excerpt from a 2010 report for the Scottish parliament about why people don't uses buses. The first few points echo your thoughts. The final point is completely unsolvable without a major social change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ca...e-68093312

What price is there to keep communities alive?

Well tickle me with a feather. 

'People tell survey that buses don't meet their needs' shocker. 
https://www.ippr.org/media-office/stop-t...-says-ippr

(03 Apr 2024, 1:36 pm)Andreos1 wrote Well tickle me with a feather. 

'People tell survey that buses don't meet their needs' shocker. 
https://www.ippr.org/media-office/stop-t...-says-ippr

A pretty small sample size for my liking, perhaps one better suited to those terrible twins, Tim and Tom Dodds.



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(03 Apr 2024, 2:27 pm)MurdnunoC wrote A pretty small sample size for my liking, perhaps one better suited to those terrible twins, Tim and Tom Dodds.



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Tim and/or Tom Dodds love a small sample.
#alledgedly

Thought this may interest some on here. I attended an HR get together Cobalt .and here’s some summarised feedback (disclaimer I have no idea if this is shared with operators or not)

Majority of colleagues remain on hybrid with 1/2 days in office being the average norm. it was felt ticketing options didn’t really address this but acknowledged the new pricing was a positive in terms of day rovers. 

Issues with the. 19 running early or observing the wrong stop, GCT also not accepting the Cobalt free travel zone (which covers the park essentially). Some speeding around the bus gate area was reported 

Feedback that 22X is better served as a decker and colleagues prefer the morning run as the competing X39 has too many stops in comparison.

Feedback that the 22X terminus/waiting point at Market St isn’t convenient for other connections, could this be reviewed or the waiting time removed

Negative feedback on the admittedly limited use of single deckers on the X39 and general time keeping of the service, Quality of buses on the route was a sticking point but overwhelming positive comments about the drivers attitude and service  on the service. Ambassador suggested a note was sent to GNE to relay this feedback around driving team

Reintroduction of the 16.38 service was positive but Stagecoach and GNE expresses are bunched together. Could timing be reviewed to provide a more stable regular express to town

90% of colleagues said they’d stay late or work longer to avoid using a non express bus to Newcastle.

Interior layout, WiFi and charge points was listed as a low priority


As I say,  nothing new or astounding here but thought it might interest folk and we all know we love a coast road service on here

(11 Apr 2024, 8:48 pm)Ambassador wrote Thought this may interest some on here. I attended an HR get together Cobalt .and here’s some summarised feedback (disclaimer I have no idea if this is shared with operators or not)

Majority of colleagues remain on hybrid with 1/2 days in office being the average norm. it was felt ticketing options didn’t really address this but acknowledged the new pricing was a positive in terms of day rovers. 

Issues with the. 19 running early or observing the wrong stop, GCT also not accepting the Cobalt free travel zone (which covers the park essentially). Some speeding around the bus gate area was reported 

Feedback that 22X is better served as a decker and colleagues prefer the morning run as the competing X39 has too many stops in comparison.

Feedback that the 22X terminus/waiting point at Market St isn’t convenient for other connections, could this be reviewed or the waiting time removed

Negative feedback on the admittedly limited use of single deckers on the X39 and general time keeping of the service, Quality of buses on the route was a sticking point but overwhelming positive comments about the drivers attitude and service  on the service. Ambassador suggested a note was sent to GNE to relay this feedback around driving team

Reintroduction of the 16.38 service was positive but Stagecoach and GNE expresses are bunched together. Could timing be reviewed to provide a more stable regular express to town

90% of colleagues said they’d stay late or work longer to avoid using a non express bus to Newcastle.

Interior layout, WiFi and charge points was listed as a low priority


As I say,  nothing new or astounding here but thought it might interest folk and we all know we love a coast road service on here

Must admit, I'm still surprised there's not been more of a push to get a proper service to Northumberland Park (ie 22 extension).

It seems a much quicker and easier journey time, even if you had to change twice than pissing about at Market Street, Haymarket or wherever. Like Gateshead is only 23 minutes on the Metro to Gateshead, say a 10 minute interchange at Northumberland Park (if you had a 10 minute service), you're looking at 38 minutes. Much more competitive than a bus which gets stuck at Corner House etc.

Always seems a missed opportunity to me, the 19's at peak times when they used to be every 15 minutes always seemed quite busy whenever I seen them pulling in. Crazy how bad the connection is from the biggest business park in the UK to the Metro system is considering it's only a mile between them.

(11 Apr 2024, 8:48 pm)Ambassador wrote Thought this may interest some on here. I attended an HR get together Cobalt .and here’s some summarised feedback (disclaimer I have no idea if this is shared with operators or not) 

Majority of colleagues remain on hybrid with 1/2 days in office being the average norm. it was felt ticketing options didn’t really address this but acknowledged the new pricing was a positive in terms of day rovers. 

Issues with the. 19 running early or observing the wrong stop, GCT also not accepting the Cobalt free travel zone (which covers the park essentially). Some speeding around the bus gate area was reported 

Feedback that 22X is better served as a decker and colleagues prefer the morning run as the competing X39 has too many stops in comparison.

Feedback that the 22X terminus/waiting point at Market St isn’t convenient for other connections, could this be reviewed or the waiting time removed

Negative feedback on the admittedly limited use of single deckers on the X39 and general time keeping of the service, Quality of buses on the route was a sticking point but overwhelming positive comments about the drivers attitude and service  on the service. Ambassador suggested a note was sent to GNE to relay this feedback around driving team

Reintroduction of the 16.38 service was positive but Stagecoach and GNE expresses are bunched together. Could timing be reviewed to provide a more stable regular express to town

90% of colleagues said they’d stay late or work longer to avoid using a non express bus to Newcastle.

Interior layout, WiFi and charge points was listed as a low priority


As I say,  nothing new or astounding here but thought it might interest folk and we all know we love a coast road service on here

I'd hope the travel team at Cobalt did share it. 
However, I'd not be too optimistic operators would be responsive to it. 

For far too long (and even from insiders posting on here), we've seen the 'operators know best mantra' shine through. 
And despite all of that, the operators don't always make the best decisions (see performance reports, cuts to services etc etc). 

Whether the feedback was laughed at, ignored or responded with a 'nah, it wouldn't work' type of answer - nothing will change. 
The travel team at places like Cobalt must be batting their heads off a wall. Positivity and free, pro-active ready made feedback from focus groups like this, would be snapped up by any other forward thinking industry/sector.

(11 Apr 2024, 9:36 pm)Storx wrote Must admit, I'm still surprised there's not been more of a push to get a proper service to Northumberland Park (ie 22 extension).

It seems a much quicker and easier journey time, even if you had to change twice than pissing about at Market Street, Haymarket or wherever. Like Gateshead is only 23 minutes on the Metro to Gateshead, say a 10 minute interchange at Northumberland Park (if you had a 10 minute service), you're looking at 38 minutes. Much more competitive than a bus which gets stuck at Corner House etc.

Always seems a missed opportunity to me, the 19's at peak times when they used to be every 15 minutes always seemed quite busy whenever I seen them pulling in. Crazy how bad the connection is from the biggest business park in the UK to the Metro system is considering it's only a mile between them.

It did actually come up that the X39 used to operate to Gateshead. If it returned it has  the air of a BSIP funding option to it..

The Metro is interesting, it barely came up tbh. Whether people are conditioned to bus transfers or just put off by the reputation or difficulty of getting to Northumberland park…

A northstar contracted e200 silver link to Northumberland park incoming…