Reversing the decline in passenger numbers
Reversing the decline in passenger numbers
(29 Oct 2023, 3:40 pm)Andreos1 What other things (within their own control) can they do go encourage growth, other than looking at the network and seeing what people actually want/need?
(29 Oct 2023, 3:40 pm)Andreos1 What other things (within their own control) can they do go encourage growth, other than looking at the network and seeing what people actually want/need?
(29 Oct 2023, 3:51 pm)MurdnunoC I never said that looking at the network isn't necessary, my question is once you change the network to suit what people indicate they want; and they still reject the bus in favour of the car (which is private, warm, reliable, there on-demand, takes you from door to door and allows for route deviations to obtain your shopping or whatever), what do you do then?
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(29 Oct 2023, 3:51 pm)MurdnunoC I never said that looking at the network isn't necessary, my question is once you change the network to suit what people indicate they want; and they still reject the bus in favour of the car (which is private, warm, reliable, there on-demand, takes you from door to door and allows for route deviations to obtain your shopping or whatever), what do you do then?
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(29 Oct 2023, 4:03 pm)Andreos1 Look in the mirror and sleep tight knowing you at least tried to grow the network and used all the options available to you.Didn't GNE try? After the Sept 2021 changes the network for for a large part ideal.
As opposed to the current mob, who don't use all the options available to them.
(29 Oct 2023, 4:03 pm)Andreos1 Look in the mirror and sleep tight knowing you at least tried to grow the network and used all the options available to you.Didn't GNE try? After the Sept 2021 changes the network for for a large part ideal.
As opposed to the current mob, who don't use all the options available to them.
(29 Oct 2023, 4:10 pm)Unber43 Didn't GNE try? After the Sept 2021 changes the network for for a large part ideal.
(29 Oct 2023, 4:11 pm)Andreos1 Not sure what you mean?After Sept 2021 GNE network was the best it was in years, and that didnt work, so they need to go back to the drawing board, but they need to reinvent areas while keeping key flashsip routes while added routes around them to try and bolster the network whcih could cause the flagships to reduce frequncies.
All I've tended to see is a stagnant network that looks pretty much the same as the map in Beamish.
(29 Oct 2023, 4:11 pm)Andreos1 Not sure what you mean?After Sept 2021 GNE network was the best it was in years, and that didnt work, so they need to go back to the drawing board, but they need to reinvent areas while keeping key flashsip routes while added routes around them to try and bolster the network whcih could cause the flagships to reduce frequncies.
All I've tended to see is a stagnant network that looks pretty much the same as the map in Beamish.
I've noticed in one of the community groups I'm in on Facebook, there's a load of people now arranging car shares with other people that live locally and happen to work in the same vicinity. I wonder how many of these arrangements will continue post-strike action, if it's mutually convenient?
Another threat to long-term passenger numbers for when GNE services return.
(29 Oct 2023, 5:11 pm)Unber43 After Sept 2021 GNE network was the best it was in years, and that didnt work, so they need to go back to the drawing board, but they need to reinvent areas while keeping key flashsip routes while added routes around them to try and bolster the network whcih could cause the flagships to reduce frequncies.
Like the 28/29 I wonder if an extension to Waldridge may be appropriate. Personally I quite like the hub and spoke model but that involves timing/the frequencys to be right, like if you wanted to go to Penshaw from NEwcaslte you used to miss the 2/2A on the X1 by about 3 mins, so it was either 27 min and leave newcastle early. Or X10, after 4/5pm the Purples dont run
(29 Oct 2023, 5:11 pm)Unber43 After Sept 2021 GNE network was the best it was in years, and that didnt work, so they need to go back to the drawing board, but they need to reinvent areas while keeping key flashsip routes while added routes around them to try and bolster the network whcih could cause the flagships to reduce frequncies.
Like the 28/29 I wonder if an extension to Waldridge may be appropriate. Personally I quite like the hub and spoke model but that involves timing/the frequencys to be right, like if you wanted to go to Penshaw from NEwcaslte you used to miss the 2/2A on the X1 by about 3 mins, so it was either 27 min and leave newcastle early. Or X10, after 4/5pm the Purples dont run
(29 Oct 2023, 9:18 pm)MurdnunoC The problem with hub and spoke models is that people tend to forget that hubs and spokes are there to support an even bigger structure: the wheel.
Hubs and spokes alone are pointless on their lonesome. You need things at the top of the spokes to make the model work more effectively. So, for example, having Durham and Consett at the end of the spokes is a bit pointless if one has to travel to Newcastle in order to get from one to the other whereas having the direct link between Durham and Consett makes the wheel (or network) work as it should.
Now, obviously there is a link between Consett and Durham in the form of the X5/X15 (and to a lesser extent, the 16), but there are examples where that link is almost non-existent.
For example, in the GNE dominated area of Derwentside, the villages of Rowlands Gill and Burnopfield lie approximately one mile from each other. Now, there is a limited link between the two villages in the form of the R5, but it only runs between 0900 and 1600 Mon-Sat (I think) which means if one wishes to travel outside of those times across a relatively short distance, it would involve either walking (about 20-30 mins depending on fitness), or getting on a bus to Metrocentre (about 10-15 minutes), then getting the bus from Metrocentre to Burnopfield (about 30 minutes). And that's two buses you need. So travelling down the spoke to the hub, then from the hub back up a neighbouring spoke, not only costs you more money, but also time.
Of course, if you had a car, the journey takes less than 5 minutes, so why use the bus at all?
This is where, I think, the hub and spoke model largely fails as communities which should be connected by public transport links become isolated from one another.
(29 Oct 2023, 9:18 pm)MurdnunoC The problem with hub and spoke models is that people tend to forget that hubs and spokes are there to support an even bigger structure: the wheel.
Hubs and spokes alone are pointless on their lonesome. You need things at the top of the spokes to make the model work more effectively. So, for example, having Durham and Consett at the end of the spokes is a bit pointless if one has to travel to Newcastle in order to get from one to the other whereas having the direct link between Durham and Consett makes the wheel (or network) work as it should.
Now, obviously there is a link between Consett and Durham in the form of the X5/X15 (and to a lesser extent, the 16), but there are examples where that link is almost non-existent.
For example, in the GNE dominated area of Derwentside, the villages of Rowlands Gill and Burnopfield lie approximately one mile from each other. Now, there is a limited link between the two villages in the form of the R5, but it only runs between 0900 and 1600 Mon-Sat (I think) which means if one wishes to travel outside of those times across a relatively short distance, it would involve either walking (about 20-30 mins depending on fitness), or getting on a bus to Metrocentre (about 10-15 minutes), then getting the bus from Metrocentre to Burnopfield (about 30 minutes). And that's two buses you need. So travelling down the spoke to the hub, then from the hub back up a neighbouring spoke, not only costs you more money, but also time.
Of course, if you had a car, the journey takes less than 5 minutes, so why use the bus at all?
This is where, I think, the hub and spoke model largely fails as communities which should be connected by public transport links become isolated from one another.
(30 Oct 2023, 9:32 am)Andreos1 I was trying to picture the GNE network as Hub & Spoke and all I kept imagining, was this:
If anyone can actually do some work or an illustration to give a rough idea of what the network looks like, I'm sure it would be appreciated by many on here.
(30 Oct 2023, 9:32 am)Andreos1 I was trying to picture the GNE network as Hub & Spoke and all I kept imagining, was this:
If anyone can actually do some work or an illustration to give a rough idea of what the network looks like, I'm sure it would be appreciated by many on here.
(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too.
One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.
This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards. In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.
To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.
(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too.
One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.
This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards. In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.
To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.
(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too.
One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.
This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards. In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.
To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.
(30 Oct 2023, 9:54 am)MurdnunoC There are probably similar examples across the networks of Stagecoach and Arriva too.
One that immediately springs to mind, which also touches upon your favourite criticism of bus companies not being more proactive in creating links between new housing developments and out-of-town shopping centres, is that there is no direct bus between Scotswood/Denton Burn/Slatyford and Kingston Park.
This link has existed in the past. When TWOC (Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company, for those who don't know) was encroaching upon the business of Busways, the TWOC duplication of the 1 was extended from Slatyford, up Binswood Avenie and Sunnyway into Blakelaw then onto Kingston Park. I'm pretty sure the Busways 1 was extended shortly afterwards. In later years, Scotswood had the 17 which continued towards Kingston Park.
To me, these are the links bus companies should be re-evaluating, rather than giving a token service to an new estate on the edge of town where residents are probably not purchasing properties on the strength of the local bus services.
(30 Oct 2023, 10:24 am)Storx It's a problem with the whole North East this and ironically it's a problem in London aswell.
There is a real problem with transport which goes around places. Everything is designed that everyone wants to go to Sunderland, Newcastle or Gateshead centre but if you actually want to commute around the outside it's near impossible without a detour.
For the hub and spoke map someone mentioned here you go, coloured routes being pretty much the only routes 'going around'. The red arrow corridors are near impossible to commute currently, and it's not as if there's no reason to be doing them as the red dots are arguably the major employment sites in Tyne and Wear.
Not ironic that arrows pretty much follow the corridor of the A1 and A19 aswell, the two busiest roads in the area.
(30 Oct 2023, 10:24 am)Storx It's a problem with the whole North East this and ironically it's a problem in London aswell.
There is a real problem with transport which goes around places. Everything is designed that everyone wants to go to Sunderland, Newcastle or Gateshead centre but if you actually want to commute around the outside it's near impossible without a detour.
For the hub and spoke map someone mentioned here you go, coloured routes being pretty much the only routes 'going around'. The red arrow corridors are near impossible to commute currently, and it's not as if there's no reason to be doing them as the red dots are arguably the major employment sites in Tyne and Wear.
Not ironic that arrows pretty much follow the corridor of the A1 and A19 aswell, the two busiest roads in the area.
(30 Oct 2023, 11:05 am)Andreos1 You're a good un.
Fancy doing one for County Durham?
It's absolutely crazy that there's not an operator able to or capable of joining the dots here.
.(30 Oct 2023, 11:05 am)Andreos1 You're a good un.
Fancy doing one for County Durham?
It's absolutely crazy that there's not an operator able to or capable of joining the dots here.
.
That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .
I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.
What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute
A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region
(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place
Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.
(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .
I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.
What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute
A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region
(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place
Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.
(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .
I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.
What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute
A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region
(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .
I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.
What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute
A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region
(30 Oct 2023, 11:13 am)Ambassador That map is really interesting and does reinforce the issues .
I'm doing some work on Colleague Commutes at the moment and we have some backup emergency sites (that we normally use for power or data loss etc) that we've activated for colleagues in the area to use down at Team Valley around Kingsway North during the strikes and also it's handily placed around our annual testing.
What was quite stark is that unless you stick to the workers services which don't really work around modern shift patterns, it's quicker to commute via bus to Newcastle from Birtley than it is to Kingsway North - you're looking roughly at 30 mins for the former and anywhere between 35-52 minutes for the Valley commute
A journey of around 3 miles that can be made by car in 8 minutes to one of the major employee centres in the region
(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place
Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.
(30 Oct 2023, 11:12 am)Storx I tried there first and gave up, completely lost track of which way the Consett and Washington routes go nowadays as they've changed so much so it ended up looking like some got angry and scribbled lines all over the place
Reason I omitted Washington and Houghton aswell ngl.
And because of my natural proclivity to provide a historical perspective. Here are some maps covering Newcastle and Gateshead from 1981 and 1986 respectively
Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
(Re-edited because the images sent from Tapatalk weren't the best)
(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)Adrian Here's a rough sketch of the 50 route:
(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)Adrian Here's a rough sketch of the 50 route:
(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)MurdnunoC And because of my natural proclivity to provide a historical perspective. Here are some maps covering Newcastle and Gateshead from 1981 and 1986 respectively
Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
(Re-edited because the images sent from Tapatalk weren't the best)
(30 Oct 2023, 11:37 am)MurdnunoC And because of my natural proclivity to provide a historical perspective. Here are some maps covering Newcastle and Gateshead from 1981 and 1986 respectively
Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
(Re-edited because the images sent from Tapatalk weren't the best)
