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mb134
4173
16 Dec 2022, 9:39 pm
#41
(16 Dec 2022, 11:01 am)Andreos1 I agree. It has been a huge focus. I've said it for years - but I don't think it works. Maybe the numbers and state of the network back the claims up.
Inevitably, we get the patter that 'people talk about it, so it must be working'. Really? Cut after cut, after rebrand, after paint job. That would tend to say otherwise.

The network is the issue. That's where the hard miles need putting in and it needs redesigning.
Bizarrely, it doesn't seem to be happening. We just keep seeing the same old, over and over again. With those cuts I mentioned above being thrown in to the mix.

Those cuts to routes and staff will save some money. It might stabilise the numbers on balance sheet. Will it grow the numbers? Doubt it.

Regarding the redundancies. I reckon they're going to be saving a 6 figure sum. Not massive and certainly not enough to save the company overall. But added together with other savings, it might balance things out a little.
Then what? More cuts? More cost savings?
At some point there needs to be growth. I'm unsure when (if ever) that's going to happen.

I think the whole "let's brand everything" is done. While I don't think they're the only companies with financial issues by a long shot, we are seeing cash issues with GNE and Transdev. As you suggest, those in the Ten Percent Club spent the past few years shouting from the rooftops about how branding is the key to recovery - surely if that was the case then GNE and Transdev would be flush with cash. 

I do think the X-Lines idea in principal was good but became somewhat messy, similar to the rollout of Arriva's MAX and Sapphire. I also wonder how good the initial business case was behind some of the routes that were converted, given how quickly they were dropped? After that though, things like Sunderland District, East Durham Explorer etc... Ultimately it all comes down to the old MD, and the question of if they were the right fit for that situation. Horses for courses and all that. 

There seems to be a change of approach with Featham, or at least a recognition of the situation the company is in. Cutting say £675k/year (using UK average wage - I doubt many will be that high though) in wages will definitely help balance some of it I reckon. Looking at LinkedIn he's bringing in folk from his time at Arriva to help as "Business Improvement Managers", evidently wants people he can trust to go and do the dirty work. You'd think that network changes will follow, but I imagine they'll want to do it properly if they are going to make huge changes - and that sort of project will require a fairly large chunk of data and a good few months of planning as a minimum. We'll probably see other changes across the business to start off with, beginning with these staff cuts and the rumoured selling off of the coaches. 

I think growth, in any company truth be told, is a little way off. Driver shortages need to be addressed, then there'll need to be growth in confidence from the travelling public. To get growth to anywhere near pre-Covid there'll also need to be frequency improvements, which will likely involve investment in the fleet given most companies have reduced fleet size over the last couple of years.
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mb134
16 Dec 2022, 9:39 pm #41

(16 Dec 2022, 11:01 am)Andreos1 I agree. It has been a huge focus. I've said it for years - but I don't think it works. Maybe the numbers and state of the network back the claims up.
Inevitably, we get the patter that 'people talk about it, so it must be working'. Really? Cut after cut, after rebrand, after paint job. That would tend to say otherwise.

The network is the issue. That's where the hard miles need putting in and it needs redesigning.
Bizarrely, it doesn't seem to be happening. We just keep seeing the same old, over and over again. With those cuts I mentioned above being thrown in to the mix.

Those cuts to routes and staff will save some money. It might stabilise the numbers on balance sheet. Will it grow the numbers? Doubt it.

Regarding the redundancies. I reckon they're going to be saving a 6 figure sum. Not massive and certainly not enough to save the company overall. But added together with other savings, it might balance things out a little.
Then what? More cuts? More cost savings?
At some point there needs to be growth. I'm unsure when (if ever) that's going to happen.

I think the whole "let's brand everything" is done. While I don't think they're the only companies with financial issues by a long shot, we are seeing cash issues with GNE and Transdev. As you suggest, those in the Ten Percent Club spent the past few years shouting from the rooftops about how branding is the key to recovery - surely if that was the case then GNE and Transdev would be flush with cash. 

I do think the X-Lines idea in principal was good but became somewhat messy, similar to the rollout of Arriva's MAX and Sapphire. I also wonder how good the initial business case was behind some of the routes that were converted, given how quickly they were dropped? After that though, things like Sunderland District, East Durham Explorer etc... Ultimately it all comes down to the old MD, and the question of if they were the right fit for that situation. Horses for courses and all that. 

There seems to be a change of approach with Featham, or at least a recognition of the situation the company is in. Cutting say £675k/year (using UK average wage - I doubt many will be that high though) in wages will definitely help balance some of it I reckon. Looking at LinkedIn he's bringing in folk from his time at Arriva to help as "Business Improvement Managers", evidently wants people he can trust to go and do the dirty work. You'd think that network changes will follow, but I imagine they'll want to do it properly if they are going to make huge changes - and that sort of project will require a fairly large chunk of data and a good few months of planning as a minimum. We'll probably see other changes across the business to start off with, beginning with these staff cuts and the rumoured selling off of the coaches. 

I think growth, in any company truth be told, is a little way off. Driver shortages need to be addressed, then there'll need to be growth in confidence from the travelling public. To get growth to anywhere near pre-Covid there'll also need to be frequency improvements, which will likely involve investment in the fleet given most companies have reduced fleet size over the last couple of years.

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Andreos1
14269
17 Dec 2022, 6:11 pm
#42
(16 Dec 2022, 9:39 pm)mb134 I think the whole "let's brand everything" is done. While I don't think they're the only companies with financial issues by a long shot, we are seeing cash issues with GNE and Transdev. As you suggest, those in the Ten Percent Club spent the past few years shouting from the rooftops about how branding is the key to recovery - surely if that was the case then GNE and Transdev would be flush with cash. 

I do think the X-Lines idea in principal was good but became somewhat messy, similar to the rollout of Arriva's MAX and Sapphire. I also wonder how good the initial business case was behind some of the routes that were converted, given how quickly they were dropped? After that though, things like Sunderland District, East Durham Explorer etc... Ultimately it all comes down to the old MD, and the question of if they were the right fit for that situation. Horses for courses and all that. 

There seems to be a change of approach with Featham, or at least a recognition of the situation the company is in. Cutting say £675k/year (using UK average wage - I doubt many will be that high though) in wages will definitely help balance some of it I reckon. Looking at LinkedIn he's bringing in folk from his time at Arriva to help as "Business Improvement Managers", evidently wants people he can trust to go and do the dirty work. You'd think that network changes will follow, but I imagine they'll want to do it properly if they are going to make huge changes - and that sort of project will require a fairly large chunk of data and a good few months of planning as a minimum. We'll probably see other changes across the business to start off with, beginning with these staff cuts and the rumoured selling off of the coaches. 

I think growth, in any company truth be told, is a little way off. Driver shortages need to be addressed, then there'll need to be growth in confidence from the travelling public. To get growth to anywhere near pre-Covid there'll also need to be frequency improvements, which will likely involve investment in the fleet given most companies have reduced fleet size over the last couple of years. 

Reducing fleet size has gone on for years. I'd argue it's not done anything other than weaken operations.

It's almost like a tory austerity dogma. Cut, cut and cut some more and assume there's growth to be made at some point.
And if there's not. Cut again.

It can't continue. Something has to stop and I hope that growth you mention, happens soon. For the sake of those who don't drive and those who see public transport as a lifeline to the outside world.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
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Andreos1
17 Dec 2022, 6:11 pm #42

(16 Dec 2022, 9:39 pm)mb134 I think the whole "let's brand everything" is done. While I don't think they're the only companies with financial issues by a long shot, we are seeing cash issues with GNE and Transdev. As you suggest, those in the Ten Percent Club spent the past few years shouting from the rooftops about how branding is the key to recovery - surely if that was the case then GNE and Transdev would be flush with cash. 

I do think the X-Lines idea in principal was good but became somewhat messy, similar to the rollout of Arriva's MAX and Sapphire. I also wonder how good the initial business case was behind some of the routes that were converted, given how quickly they were dropped? After that though, things like Sunderland District, East Durham Explorer etc... Ultimately it all comes down to the old MD, and the question of if they were the right fit for that situation. Horses for courses and all that. 

There seems to be a change of approach with Featham, or at least a recognition of the situation the company is in. Cutting say £675k/year (using UK average wage - I doubt many will be that high though) in wages will definitely help balance some of it I reckon. Looking at LinkedIn he's bringing in folk from his time at Arriva to help as "Business Improvement Managers", evidently wants people he can trust to go and do the dirty work. You'd think that network changes will follow, but I imagine they'll want to do it properly if they are going to make huge changes - and that sort of project will require a fairly large chunk of data and a good few months of planning as a minimum. We'll probably see other changes across the business to start off with, beginning with these staff cuts and the rumoured selling off of the coaches. 

I think growth, in any company truth be told, is a little way off. Driver shortages need to be addressed, then there'll need to be growth in confidence from the travelling public. To get growth to anywhere near pre-Covid there'll also need to be frequency improvements, which will likely involve investment in the fleet given most companies have reduced fleet size over the last couple of years. 

Reducing fleet size has gone on for years. I'd argue it's not done anything other than weaken operations.

It's almost like a tory austerity dogma. Cut, cut and cut some more and assume there's growth to be made at some point.
And if there's not. Cut again.

It can't continue. Something has to stop and I hope that growth you mention, happens soon. For the sake of those who don't drive and those who see public transport as a lifeline to the outside world.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'

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Malarkey
6064
17 Dec 2022, 7:11 pm
#43
(17 Dec 2022, 6:11 pm)Andreos1 Reducing fleet size has gone on for years. I'd argue it's not done anything other than weaken operations.

It's almost like a tory austerity dogma. Cut, cut and cut some more and assume there's growth to be made at some point.
And if there's not. Cut again.

It can't continue. Something has to stop and I hope that growth you mention, happens soon. For the sake of those who don't drive and those who see public transport as a lifeline to the outside world.
Just need Go North East, Stagecoach, Arriva, Independent Operators, Nexus and Local Councils to sit around a table and get rid of the duplication along various corridors in the region to bring about a more stabilised network of services as lot of them could be merged into others offering alternative links for local communities which would go along way in solving this "Driver Shortage" situation.
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Malarkey
17 Dec 2022, 7:11 pm #43

(17 Dec 2022, 6:11 pm)Andreos1 Reducing fleet size has gone on for years. I'd argue it's not done anything other than weaken operations.

It's almost like a tory austerity dogma. Cut, cut and cut some more and assume there's growth to be made at some point.
And if there's not. Cut again.

It can't continue. Something has to stop and I hope that growth you mention, happens soon. For the sake of those who don't drive and those who see public transport as a lifeline to the outside world.
Just need Go North East, Stagecoach, Arriva, Independent Operators, Nexus and Local Councils to sit around a table and get rid of the duplication along various corridors in the region to bring about a more stabilised network of services as lot of them could be merged into others offering alternative links for local communities which would go along way in solving this "Driver Shortage" situation.

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Storx
4677
17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm
#44
(17 Dec 2022, 7:11 pm)Malarkey Just need Go North East, Stagecoach, Arriva, Independent Operators, Nexus and Local Councils to sit around a table and get rid of the duplication along various corridors in the region to bring about a more stabilised network of services as lot of them could be merged into others offering alternative links for local communities which would go along way in solving this "Driver Shortage" situation.

I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
Wallsend, 22 primary route - 1 out.
Gosforth, 43/44/45 primary routes - Q3 out.
Sunderland to West Seaham / Peterlee, 22/23 primary routes - 61 out.
Durham to Bishop Auckland, 6 primary route - X21 out.
Sunderland to Pennywell, 20 primary route, 39/39A out.

GoNorthEast are generally the nuisance operator in terms of duplicating things.

I'm not saying none of those routes should exist but the sake of removing all duplication then those would have to go. In fact I can't think of any where the other 2 are the nuisance tbh other than maybe the X12 between Durham and Newcastle but again it has its purpose.
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Storx
17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm #44

(17 Dec 2022, 7:11 pm)Malarkey Just need Go North East, Stagecoach, Arriva, Independent Operators, Nexus and Local Councils to sit around a table and get rid of the duplication along various corridors in the region to bring about a more stabilised network of services as lot of them could be merged into others offering alternative links for local communities which would go along way in solving this "Driver Shortage" situation.

I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
Wallsend, 22 primary route - 1 out.
Gosforth, 43/44/45 primary routes - Q3 out.
Sunderland to West Seaham / Peterlee, 22/23 primary routes - 61 out.
Durham to Bishop Auckland, 6 primary route - X21 out.
Sunderland to Pennywell, 20 primary route, 39/39A out.

GoNorthEast are generally the nuisance operator in terms of duplicating things.

I'm not saying none of those routes should exist but the sake of removing all duplication then those would have to go. In fact I can't think of any where the other 2 are the nuisance tbh other than maybe the X12 between Durham and Newcastle but again it has its purpose.

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Unber43
3570
17 Dec 2022, 8:16 pm
#45
(17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm)Storx I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
Wallsend, 22 primary route - 1 out.
Gosforth, 43/44/45 primary routes - Q3 out.
Sunderland to West Seaham / Peterlee, 22/23 primary routes - 61 out.
Durham to Bishop Auckland, 6 primary route - X21 out.
Sunderland to Pennywell, 20 primary route, 39/39A out.

GoNorthEast are generally the nuisance operator in terms of duplicating things.

I'm not saying none of those routes should exist but the sake of removing all duplication then those would have to go. In fact I can't think of any where the other 2 are the nuisance tbh other than maybe the X12 between Durham and Newcastle but again it has its purpose.
But wouldn't you agree the X21/39/39A could possibly be the better option for passengers with better connections. And as for the 22/23 surely they're the nuisance operator which have came into Sunderland/Seaham which is heavy GNE Territory.
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Unber43
17 Dec 2022, 8:16 pm #45

(17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm)Storx I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
Wallsend, 22 primary route - 1 out.
Gosforth, 43/44/45 primary routes - Q3 out.
Sunderland to West Seaham / Peterlee, 22/23 primary routes - 61 out.
Durham to Bishop Auckland, 6 primary route - X21 out.
Sunderland to Pennywell, 20 primary route, 39/39A out.

GoNorthEast are generally the nuisance operator in terms of duplicating things.

I'm not saying none of those routes should exist but the sake of removing all duplication then those would have to go. In fact I can't think of any where the other 2 are the nuisance tbh other than maybe the X12 between Durham and Newcastle but again it has its purpose.
But wouldn't you agree the X21/39/39A could possibly be the better option for passengers with better connections. And as for the 22/23 surely they're the nuisance operator which have came into Sunderland/Seaham which is heavy GNE Territory.

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Storx
4677
17 Dec 2022, 8:33 pm
#46
(17 Dec 2022, 8:16 pm)Unber43 But wouldn't you agree the X21/39/39A could possibly be the better option for passengers with better connections. And as for the 22/23 surely they're the nuisance operator which have came into Sunderland/Seaham which is heavy GNE Territory.

Not really the 6 is every 15 minutes and runs on evenings in a Arriva area whereas the X21 is every 30 minutes and doesn't.

The X21 should avoid Durham if it was about duplication like it used to then it would be more useful. If tickets were intermodal then no-one loses out.

Peterlee and West Seaham are both heavy Arriva though, there's always going to be some duplication.

On paper though the best routes would be imo:

X21: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Darlington (Hourly)
X22: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Middlesbrough (Hourly)
X6: Withdrawn, replaced by X21/X22
22: Sunderland - East Lea / West Lea - Murton Loop - Peterlee - Current Route - Durham (Every 30 Minutes)
23: Current Route (Every 30 Minutes)
60 -> Renumbered 21 (Every 15 Minutes)
61: Withdrawn, replaced by 22

21/22/23 - Every 7.5 Minutes, Sunderland to East/West Lea
X21/X22 - Every 30 Minutes

Obviously a problem when you have 2 operators though. The PVR should be the same / slightly less than now aswell.
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Storx
17 Dec 2022, 8:33 pm #46

(17 Dec 2022, 8:16 pm)Unber43 But wouldn't you agree the X21/39/39A could possibly be the better option for passengers with better connections. And as for the 22/23 surely they're the nuisance operator which have came into Sunderland/Seaham which is heavy GNE Territory.

Not really the 6 is every 15 minutes and runs on evenings in a Arriva area whereas the X21 is every 30 minutes and doesn't.

The X21 should avoid Durham if it was about duplication like it used to then it would be more useful. If tickets were intermodal then no-one loses out.

Peterlee and West Seaham are both heavy Arriva though, there's always going to be some duplication.

On paper though the best routes would be imo:

X21: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Darlington (Hourly)
X22: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Middlesbrough (Hourly)
X6: Withdrawn, replaced by X21/X22
22: Sunderland - East Lea / West Lea - Murton Loop - Peterlee - Current Route - Durham (Every 30 Minutes)
23: Current Route (Every 30 Minutes)
60 -> Renumbered 21 (Every 15 Minutes)
61: Withdrawn, replaced by 22

21/22/23 - Every 7.5 Minutes, Sunderland to East/West Lea
X21/X22 - Every 30 Minutes

Obviously a problem when you have 2 operators though. The PVR should be the same / slightly less than now aswell.

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Unber43
3570
17 Dec 2022, 8:52 pm
#47
(17 Dec 2022, 8:33 pm)Storx Not really the 6 is every 15 minutes and runs on evenings in a Arriva area whereas the X21 is every 30 minutes and doesn't.

The X21 should avoid Durham if it was about duplication like it used to then it would be more useful. If tickets were intermodal then no-one loses out.

Peterlee and West Seaham are both heavy Arriva though, there's always going to be some duplication.

On paper though the best routes would be imo:

X21: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Darlington (Hourly)
X22: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Middlesbrough (Hourly)
X6: Withdrawn, replaced by X21/X22
22: Sunderland - East Lea / West Lea - Murton - South Hetton - Peterlee - Current Route - Durham (Every 30 Minutes)
23: Current Route (Every 30 Minutes)
60 -> Renumbered 21 (Every 15 Minutes)
61: Withdrawn, replaced by 22

21/22/23 - Every 7.5 Minutes, Sunderland to East/West Lea
X21/X22 - Every 30 Minutes

Obviously a problem when you have 2 operators though. The PVR should be the same / slightly less than now aswell.
Well Arriva are pulling out of Sunderland and Seaham, with reduced services to Sunderland on Saturdays and Sundays. X21 was pulled out too. 

I feel like Peterlee is a massive issue, arguable GNE should run the 22 between Sunderland & Durham, and 23 between Sunderland & Peterlee & 24 between Peterlee & Durham. And then you could extend the X6 to Middlesbrough which would become a better connection to the X10 too. 

And 6 at every 15 mins is better however on X21 offers a better connection to Newcastle and if it was every 15 mins it would be better, same with the 21, if that was every 15 mins to Brandon it would be better, and a much better option via 49/49A. 

Personally I would do 

X5 - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (every 60 mins) Old 55 Way
X5A - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (23 way every 60 mins)
X6 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Middlesbrough (every 60 mins)
X7 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Wingate - Bowburn - Durham (every 60 mins)
X8 - Newcastle - Durham - Bowburn - Darlington (Every 30 mins) 
60 - Sunderland - Parkside (every 12 mins)
61 - Sunderland - Dalton Park - Murton - South Hetton - Peterlee (every 30 mins) - Darlington (hourly)
62 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hawthorn - Easington - Peterlee (every 30 mins)
63 - Peterlee - Shotton - Sherburn - Durham - Arnison Centre(every 60 mins)
65 - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hetton-Le-Hole - Durham (every 30 mins)
64/64A - (209/210 route)
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Unber43
17 Dec 2022, 8:52 pm #47

(17 Dec 2022, 8:33 pm)Storx Not really the 6 is every 15 minutes and runs on evenings in a Arriva area whereas the X21 is every 30 minutes and doesn't.

The X21 should avoid Durham if it was about duplication like it used to then it would be more useful. If tickets were intermodal then no-one loses out.

Peterlee and West Seaham are both heavy Arriva though, there's always going to be some duplication.

On paper though the best routes would be imo:

X21: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Darlington (Hourly)
X22: Sunderland - Limited Stop - Seaham - Limited Stop - Peterlee - Current Route - Middlesbrough (Hourly)
X6: Withdrawn, replaced by X21/X22
22: Sunderland - East Lea / West Lea - Murton - South Hetton - Peterlee - Current Route - Durham (Every 30 Minutes)
23: Current Route (Every 30 Minutes)
60 -> Renumbered 21 (Every 15 Minutes)
61: Withdrawn, replaced by 22

21/22/23 - Every 7.5 Minutes, Sunderland to East/West Lea
X21/X22 - Every 30 Minutes

Obviously a problem when you have 2 operators though. The PVR should be the same / slightly less than now aswell.
Well Arriva are pulling out of Sunderland and Seaham, with reduced services to Sunderland on Saturdays and Sundays. X21 was pulled out too. 

I feel like Peterlee is a massive issue, arguable GNE should run the 22 between Sunderland & Durham, and 23 between Sunderland & Peterlee & 24 between Peterlee & Durham. And then you could extend the X6 to Middlesbrough which would become a better connection to the X10 too. 

And 6 at every 15 mins is better however on X21 offers a better connection to Newcastle and if it was every 15 mins it would be better, same with the 21, if that was every 15 mins to Brandon it would be better, and a much better option via 49/49A. 

Personally I would do 

X5 - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (every 60 mins) Old 55 Way
X5A - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (23 way every 60 mins)
X6 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Middlesbrough (every 60 mins)
X7 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Wingate - Bowburn - Durham (every 60 mins)
X8 - Newcastle - Durham - Bowburn - Darlington (Every 30 mins) 
60 - Sunderland - Parkside (every 12 mins)
61 - Sunderland - Dalton Park - Murton - South Hetton - Peterlee (every 30 mins) - Darlington (hourly)
62 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hawthorn - Easington - Peterlee (every 30 mins)
63 - Peterlee - Shotton - Sherburn - Durham - Arnison Centre(every 60 mins)
65 - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hetton-Le-Hole - Durham (every 30 mins)
64/64A - (209/210 route)

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L469 YVK
3561
17 Dec 2022, 8:53 pm
#48
(17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm)Storx I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
As mentioned in previous threads, if done carefully then both sets could exist but in different forms.

Arriva - COAST EXPRESS
X36 - Tynemouth - North Shields - Preston Road - Queen Alexandra Road Hawkeys Lane - Chirton Green - Billy Mill Avenue - Verne Road - Norham Road - Coast Road all stops to Willington Square then non stop to Newcastle City Centre (every 20 minutes)

X38 - Same as 308 from Blyth to Willington Square then non stop to Newcastle City Centre (every 20 minutes)

Go North East - COASTLINE
309 - Whitley Bay Town Centre - Marden - Malvern Road - Rake Lane - New York - Cobalt - Silverlink - Coast Road all stops to Newcastle City Centre (every 30 minutes) - evening & Sunday journeys via Battle Hill rather than Holy Cross

310 - Tynemouth - Fish Quay & Ferry - Royal Quays - East Howdon - Tyne Tunnel Trading Est - Silverlink then same as 309 (every 30 minutes)

311 - Same as current 310 but via Cobalt Park, New York Road and Norham Road North (every 30 minutes) - evening & Sunday journeys omit Cobalt and run via Middle Engine Lane but also serve Hadrian Park

312 - Same as current 311 (every 30 minutes)
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L469 YVK
17 Dec 2022, 8:53 pm #48

(17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm)Storx I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
As mentioned in previous threads, if done carefully then both sets could exist but in different forms.

Arriva - COAST EXPRESS
X36 - Tynemouth - North Shields - Preston Road - Queen Alexandra Road Hawkeys Lane - Chirton Green - Billy Mill Avenue - Verne Road - Norham Road - Coast Road all stops to Willington Square then non stop to Newcastle City Centre (every 20 minutes)

X38 - Same as 308 from Blyth to Willington Square then non stop to Newcastle City Centre (every 20 minutes)

Go North East - COASTLINE
309 - Whitley Bay Town Centre - Marden - Malvern Road - Rake Lane - New York - Cobalt - Silverlink - Coast Road all stops to Newcastle City Centre (every 30 minutes) - evening & Sunday journeys via Battle Hill rather than Holy Cross

310 - Tynemouth - Fish Quay & Ferry - Royal Quays - East Howdon - Tyne Tunnel Trading Est - Silverlink then same as 309 (every 30 minutes)

311 - Same as current 310 but via Cobalt Park, New York Road and Norham Road North (every 30 minutes) - evening & Sunday journeys omit Cobalt and run via Middle Engine Lane but also serve Hadrian Park

312 - Same as current 311 (every 30 minutes)

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Malarkey
6064
17 Dec 2022, 9:20 pm
#49
(17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm)Storx I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
Wallsend, 22 primary route - 1 out.
Gosforth, 43/44/45 primary routes - Q3 out.
Sunderland to West Seaham / Peterlee, 22/23 primary routes - 61 out.
Durham to Bishop Auckland, 6 primary route - X21 out.
Sunderland to Pennywell, 20 primary route, 39/39A out.

GoNorthEast are generally the nuisance operator in terms of duplicating things.

I'm not saying none of those routes should exist but the sake of removing all duplication then those would have to go. In fact I can't think of any where the other 2 are the nuisance tbh other than maybe the X12 between Durham and Newcastle but again it has its purpose.

It looks that way when you look at it but if look to how Oxford done there's earlier in the year if either Oxford Bus Company or Stagecoach were losing out on a shared corridor then the latter was awarded a contract of services from the latter on another shared corridor or a non competitive corridor, not sure if that work up here as I would say our services are more complex and each operate in the same areas with a varying percentage of who's the more dominant operator.

That is why I would then say once you've removed all duplication of services then they should all be retendered and open to bidding from all operators in similar way to how they are working it out in Manchester with there "Bee Network" which be starting in September 2023. 

Only other way I could see it benefitting both Arriva and Go North East was if they did a trade of Arriva Durham (Belmont/Full X12 Ops) for Go North East (Percy Main/Q3-Riverside), that would make "Arriva the Primary Operator in North Tyneside through to Blyth" and "Go North East the Primary Operator in County Durham" and then streamline the frequency's of services from there to better suit passenger demand.
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Malarkey
17 Dec 2022, 9:20 pm #49

(17 Dec 2022, 8:03 pm)Storx I'm not sure it would be in the best interests of GNE that mind.

Coast Road, 306/308 are primary routes - 309/310/311 out.
Wallsend, 22 primary route - 1 out.
Gosforth, 43/44/45 primary routes - Q3 out.
Sunderland to West Seaham / Peterlee, 22/23 primary routes - 61 out.
Durham to Bishop Auckland, 6 primary route - X21 out.
Sunderland to Pennywell, 20 primary route, 39/39A out.

GoNorthEast are generally the nuisance operator in terms of duplicating things.

I'm not saying none of those routes should exist but the sake of removing all duplication then those would have to go. In fact I can't think of any where the other 2 are the nuisance tbh other than maybe the X12 between Durham and Newcastle but again it has its purpose.

It looks that way when you look at it but if look to how Oxford done there's earlier in the year if either Oxford Bus Company or Stagecoach were losing out on a shared corridor then the latter was awarded a contract of services from the latter on another shared corridor or a non competitive corridor, not sure if that work up here as I would say our services are more complex and each operate in the same areas with a varying percentage of who's the more dominant operator.

That is why I would then say once you've removed all duplication of services then they should all be retendered and open to bidding from all operators in similar way to how they are working it out in Manchester with there "Bee Network" which be starting in September 2023. 

Only other way I could see it benefitting both Arriva and Go North East was if they did a trade of Arriva Durham (Belmont/Full X12 Ops) for Go North East (Percy Main/Q3-Riverside), that would make "Arriva the Primary Operator in North Tyneside through to Blyth" and "Go North East the Primary Operator in County Durham" and then streamline the frequency's of services from there to better suit passenger demand.

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Storx
4677
17 Dec 2022, 9:21 pm
#50
(17 Dec 2022, 8:52 pm)Unber43 Well Arriva are pulling out of Sunderland and Seaham, with reduced services to Sunderland on Saturdays and Sundays. X21 was pulled out too. 

I feel like Peterlee is a massive issue, arguable GNE should run the 22 between Sunderland & Durham, and 23 between Sunderland & Peterlee & 24 between Peterlee & Durham. And then you could extend the X6 to Middlesbrough which would become a better connection to the X10 too. 

And 6 at every 15 mins is better however on X21 offers a better connection to Newcastle and if it was every 15 mins it would be better, same with the 21, if that was every 15 mins to Brandon it would be better, and a much better option via 49/49A. 

Personally I would do 

X5 - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (every 60 mins) Old 55 Way
X5A - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (23 way every 60 mins)
X6 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Middlesbrough (every 60 mins)
X7 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Wingate - Bowburn - Durham (every 60 mins)
X8 - Newcastle - Durham - Bowburn - Darlington (Every 30 mins) 
60 - Sunderland - Parkside (every 12 mins)
61 - Sunderland - Dalton Park - Murton - South Hetton - Peterlee (every 30 mins) - Darlington (hourly)
62 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hawthorn - Easington - Peterlee (every 30 mins)
63 - Peterlee - Shotton - Sherburn - Durham - Arnison Centre(every 60 mins)
65 - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hetton-Le-Hole - Durham (every 30 mins)
64/64A - (209/210 route)

Not sure all the express services are needed they're all slow as hell. I know you like GNE more but most of them don't benefit the communities. GNE are pulling out of Seaham at the same time; 65 hourly, 60 still every 15 minutes, X7 scrapped.
It's a messy area imo. Remember GNE sold Bishop to Arriva in the past so they definitely shouldn't be running the 6. If anything for the Durham routes this would be better:

EXPRESS:
EX1 - Newcastle - Chester Le Street - Durham - Middlesbrough (Hourly)
EX2 - Newcastle - Chester Le Street - Durham - Brandon (Hourly)
EX3 - Newcastle - Chester Le Street - Durham - Spennymoor - Bishop Auckland - West Auckland (Every 30 Minutes)

SLOW
N1 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel - Birtley - Chester Le Street - Arnison - Durham (Every 30 Minutes)
N2 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel - Birtley - Chester Le Street - Langley Park (Every Hour)
N3 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel - Birtley - Chester Le Street - Houghton (Every Hour)
N4 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel (Every 15 Minutes)

B1 - Durham - Spennymoor - Bishop Auckland - West Auckland (Every 30 Minutes)
B2 - Durham - Brandon (Every 20/40 around EX2)

EX1/EX2/EX3 - Every 15 Minutes, Newcastle - CLS (Express)  - Durham
N1/N2/N3 - Every 15 Minutes, Newcastle - Birtley - CLS (Slow) - Durham
N1/N2/N3/N4 - Every 7.5 Minutes, Newcastle - Angel
B1/EX3 - Every 15 Minutes, Durham to West Auckland
B2/EX2 - Every 20 Minutes, Durham to Brandon

It would be much better than the mess around but again there's problems with operators again. They're not the numbers btw as I couldn't be bothered to make them up. PVR should be roughly the same as now potentially less taking in the withdrawal of the 725 and part of the 71.
(17 Dec 2022, 9:20 pm)Malarkey It looks that way when you look at it but if look to how Oxford done there's earlier in the year if either Oxford Bus Company or Stagecoach were losing out on a shared corridor then the latter was awarded a contract of services from the latter on another shared corridor or a non competitive corridor, not sure if that work up here as I would say our services are more complex and each operate in the same areas with a varying percentage of who's the more dominant operator.

That is why I would then say once you've removed all duplication of services then they should all be retendered and open to bidding from all operators in similar way to how they are working it out in Manchester with there "Bee Network" which be starting in September 2023. 

Only other way I could see it benefitting both Arriva and Go North East was if they did a trade of Arriva Durham (Belmont/Full X12 Ops) for Go North East (Percy Main/Q3-Riverside), that would make "Arriva the Primary Operator in North Tyneside through to Blyth" and "Go North East the Primary Operator in County Durham" and then streamline the frequency's of services from there to better suit passenger demand.

Percy Main is a weak depot compared to Durham though, it's not really a fair swap and would just cause problems in Bishop Auckland instead with the likes of the 56 etc and 1/6 through the South end of the town.

Ideally they need to come together and work together even if it's splitting profits in East Durham, Coast Road and bringing Stagecoach in, South Tyneside as all three areas are weak as piss water unless you happen to live on the right corridor.

It's a hard one to fix as they can say they can work together, they just won't and I don't blame them. It's why we need franchising like Manchester imo but then I wouldn't trust Nexus either as they're useless aswell.
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Storx
17 Dec 2022, 9:21 pm #50

(17 Dec 2022, 8:52 pm)Unber43 Well Arriva are pulling out of Sunderland and Seaham, with reduced services to Sunderland on Saturdays and Sundays. X21 was pulled out too. 

I feel like Peterlee is a massive issue, arguable GNE should run the 22 between Sunderland & Durham, and 23 between Sunderland & Peterlee & 24 between Peterlee & Durham. And then you could extend the X6 to Middlesbrough which would become a better connection to the X10 too. 

And 6 at every 15 mins is better however on X21 offers a better connection to Newcastle and if it was every 15 mins it would be better, same with the 21, if that was every 15 mins to Brandon it would be better, and a much better option via 49/49A. 

Personally I would do 

X5 - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (every 60 mins) Old 55 Way
X5A - Sunderland - Peterlee - Hartlepool (23 way every 60 mins)
X6 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Middlesbrough (every 60 mins)
X7 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Peterlee - Wingate - Bowburn - Durham (every 60 mins)
X8 - Newcastle - Durham - Bowburn - Darlington (Every 30 mins) 
60 - Sunderland - Parkside (every 12 mins)
61 - Sunderland - Dalton Park - Murton - South Hetton - Peterlee (every 30 mins) - Darlington (hourly)
62 - Sunderland - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hawthorn - Easington - Peterlee (every 30 mins)
63 - Peterlee - Shotton - Sherburn - Durham - Arnison Centre(every 60 mins)
65 - Seaham - Dalton Park - Hetton-Le-Hole - Durham (every 30 mins)
64/64A - (209/210 route)

Not sure all the express services are needed they're all slow as hell. I know you like GNE more but most of them don't benefit the communities. GNE are pulling out of Seaham at the same time; 65 hourly, 60 still every 15 minutes, X7 scrapped.
It's a messy area imo. Remember GNE sold Bishop to Arriva in the past so they definitely shouldn't be running the 6. If anything for the Durham routes this would be better:

EXPRESS:
EX1 - Newcastle - Chester Le Street - Durham - Middlesbrough (Hourly)
EX2 - Newcastle - Chester Le Street - Durham - Brandon (Hourly)
EX3 - Newcastle - Chester Le Street - Durham - Spennymoor - Bishop Auckland - West Auckland (Every 30 Minutes)

SLOW
N1 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel - Birtley - Chester Le Street - Arnison - Durham (Every 30 Minutes)
N2 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel - Birtley - Chester Le Street - Langley Park (Every Hour)
N3 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel - Birtley - Chester Le Street - Houghton (Every Hour)
N4 - Newcastle - Low Fell - Angel (Every 15 Minutes)

B1 - Durham - Spennymoor - Bishop Auckland - West Auckland (Every 30 Minutes)
B2 - Durham - Brandon (Every 20/40 around EX2)

EX1/EX2/EX3 - Every 15 Minutes, Newcastle - CLS (Express)  - Durham
N1/N2/N3 - Every 15 Minutes, Newcastle - Birtley - CLS (Slow) - Durham
N1/N2/N3/N4 - Every 7.5 Minutes, Newcastle - Angel
B1/EX3 - Every 15 Minutes, Durham to West Auckland
B2/EX2 - Every 20 Minutes, Durham to Brandon

It would be much better than the mess around but again there's problems with operators again. They're not the numbers btw as I couldn't be bothered to make them up. PVR should be roughly the same as now potentially less taking in the withdrawal of the 725 and part of the 71.
(17 Dec 2022, 9:20 pm)Malarkey It looks that way when you look at it but if look to how Oxford done there's earlier in the year if either Oxford Bus Company or Stagecoach were losing out on a shared corridor then the latter was awarded a contract of services from the latter on another shared corridor or a non competitive corridor, not sure if that work up here as I would say our services are more complex and each operate in the same areas with a varying percentage of who's the more dominant operator.

That is why I would then say once you've removed all duplication of services then they should all be retendered and open to bidding from all operators in similar way to how they are working it out in Manchester with there "Bee Network" which be starting in September 2023. 

Only other way I could see it benefitting both Arriva and Go North East was if they did a trade of Arriva Durham (Belmont/Full X12 Ops) for Go North East (Percy Main/Q3-Riverside), that would make "Arriva the Primary Operator in North Tyneside through to Blyth" and "Go North East the Primary Operator in County Durham" and then streamline the frequency's of services from there to better suit passenger demand.

Percy Main is a weak depot compared to Durham though, it's not really a fair swap and would just cause problems in Bishop Auckland instead with the likes of the 56 etc and 1/6 through the South end of the town.

Ideally they need to come together and work together even if it's splitting profits in East Durham, Coast Road and bringing Stagecoach in, South Tyneside as all three areas are weak as piss water unless you happen to live on the right corridor.

It's a hard one to fix as they can say they can work together, they just won't and I don't blame them. It's why we need franchising like Manchester imo but then I wouldn't trust Nexus either as they're useless aswell.

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Unber43
3570
17 Dec 2022, 9:45 pm
#51
Honestly I feel like there needs to be areas splits e.g

GNE - Sunderland (south of the river + 24/56/9), Consett, Durham, Washington, Newcastle (centre) , Gateshead, South Shields, Peterlee, South Durham, possibly Hartlepool

Arriva - Darlington, North East Newcastle, Middlesbrough, South Durham towards Darlington, Redcar

SC - Middlesbrough, Sunderland (north of river wear), Possibly Hartlepool

Also Operators like GCT aren't helping either with getting people on the bus
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Unber43
17 Dec 2022, 9:45 pm #51

Honestly I feel like there needs to be areas splits e.g

GNE - Sunderland (south of the river + 24/56/9), Consett, Durham, Washington, Newcastle (centre) , Gateshead, South Shields, Peterlee, South Durham, possibly Hartlepool

Arriva - Darlington, North East Newcastle, Middlesbrough, South Durham towards Darlington, Redcar

SC - Middlesbrough, Sunderland (north of river wear), Possibly Hartlepool

Also Operators like GCT aren't helping either with getting people on the bus

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Andreos1
14269
17 Dec 2022, 9:52 pm
#52
(17 Dec 2022, 7:11 pm)Malarkey Just need Go North East, Stagecoach, Arriva, Independent Operators, Nexus and Local Councils to sit around a table and get rid of the duplication along various corridors in the region to bring about a more stabilised network of services as lot of them could be merged into others offering alternative links for local communities which would go along way in solving this "Driver Shortage" situation.

That's what QCS could have achieved.
'Illegitimis non carborundum'
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Andreos1
17 Dec 2022, 9:52 pm #52

(17 Dec 2022, 7:11 pm)Malarkey Just need Go North East, Stagecoach, Arriva, Independent Operators, Nexus and Local Councils to sit around a table and get rid of the duplication along various corridors in the region to bring about a more stabilised network of services as lot of them could be merged into others offering alternative links for local communities which would go along way in solving this "Driver Shortage" situation.

That's what QCS could have achieved.

'Illegitimis non carborundum'

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busmanT
940
17 Dec 2022, 11:46 pm
#53
(17 Dec 2022, 9:45 pm)Unber43 Honestly I feel like there needs to be areas splits e.g

GNE - Sunderland (south of the river + 24/56/9), Consett, Durham, Washington, Newcastle (centre) , Gateshead, South Shields, Peterlee, South Durham, possibly Hartlepool

Arriva - Darlington, North East Newcastle, Middlesbrough, South Durham towards Darlington, Redcar

SC - Middlesbrough, Sunderland (north of river wear), Possibly Hartlepool

Also Operators like GCT aren't helping either with getting people on the bus
GCT just run what the local authorities pay them to - if they don’t run them correctly the local authorities should take action.
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busmanT
17 Dec 2022, 11:46 pm #53

(17 Dec 2022, 9:45 pm)Unber43 Honestly I feel like there needs to be areas splits e.g

GNE - Sunderland (south of the river + 24/56/9), Consett, Durham, Washington, Newcastle (centre) , Gateshead, South Shields, Peterlee, South Durham, possibly Hartlepool

Arriva - Darlington, North East Newcastle, Middlesbrough, South Durham towards Darlington, Redcar

SC - Middlesbrough, Sunderland (north of river wear), Possibly Hartlepool

Also Operators like GCT aren't helping either with getting people on the bus
GCT just run what the local authorities pay them to - if they don’t run them correctly the local authorities should take action.

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