Apologies for my outburst, atleast Im decent enough to apologise

(04 Apr 2025, 2:03 pm)F114TML wrote Hi 
The way Lady Kim is going on, no.

She says it's a vital link but is just using it to bash Stagecoach and not said anything I can see about maintaining it.

Hopefully drawing attention to the cuts may force SNE to back down. They butchered the service over the years.

Varies event routes from the 16th-18th May, has appeared

PB0002404/452
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD LS3 (LS3) Heaton, Warwick Street Heaton, Warwick Street

PB0002404/451
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD LS2 (LS2) Shipley Art Gallery Shipley Art Gallery

PB0002404/453
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD CC1 (CC1, CC1) Four Lane Ends Interchange Newcastle Racecourse

PB0002404/454
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD CC2 (CC2) Great Park Newcastle Racecourse

PB0002404/450
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD LS1 (LS1) Newcastle Discovery Museum Newcastle Discovery Museum


------


PB0002404/428
Variation BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD 452 (452) Sunderland Round Robin St Roberts RC Academy

PB0002404/21
Variation BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD 1 (2) South Shields Town Centre Biddick Hall Estate

PB0002404/439
Variation BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD 960 (960) South Shields Interchange Waterview

(04 Apr 2025, 6:35 pm)Michael wrote Varies event routes from the 16th-18th May, has appeared

PB0002404/452
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD LS3 (LS3) Heaton, Warwick Street Heaton, Warwick Street

PB0002404/451
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD LS2 (LS2) Shipley Art Gallery Shipley Art Gallery

PB0002404/453
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD CC1 (CC1, CC1) Four Lane Ends Interchange Newcastle Racecourse

PB0002404/454
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD CC2 (CC2) Great Park Newcastle Racecourse

PB0002404/450
New BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD LS1 (LS1) Newcastle Discovery Museum Newcastle Discovery Museum


------


PB0002404/428
Variation BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD 452 (452) Sunderland Round Robin St Roberts RC Academy

PB0002404/21
Variation BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD 1 (2) South Shields Town Centre Biddick Hall Estate

PB0002404/439
Variation BUSWAYS TRAVEL SERVICES LTD 960 (960) South Shields Interchange Waterview

Interesting there's 3 LS routes this year.  Presumably will be closed top sadly.

(04 Apr 2025, 3:10 pm)Economic505 wrote Hopefully drawing attention to the cuts may force SNE to back down. They butchered the service over the years.

I’d turn the clock back and bring back the old 118 , 121 and 122. These were merged in 1983 , becoming the Grindon Circle 118 and 119.

(04 Apr 2025, 6:57 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Interesting there's 3 LS routes this year.  Presumably will be closed top sadly.

LS2 & LS3 are what Stanley Travel used to run on the late shows

Stanley Travel coverd the Ouseburn shuttle & the Gateshead Shipley Art Gallery shuttle. However Stagecoach are using the Yutongs this year so more than likely they decided to run all 3 of them instead

Having read the BBc article this morning...All this begs the question....what on earth is the point of the Enhanced Partnership?

I can't help but feel NECA are great at typing words in to Microsoft Word and absolutely useless when they actually have to do something. Ominous

(06 Apr 2025, 8:36 am)DeltaMan wrote Having read the BBc article this morning...All this begs the question....what on earth is the point of the Enhanced Partnership?

I can't help but feel NECA are great at typing words in to Microsoft Word and absolutely useless when they actually have to do something. Ominous

Bus Franchising is the way forward, like Manchester or London, or full reregulation.

(06 Apr 2025, 10:10 am)Economic505 wrote Bus Franchising is the way forward, like Manchester or London, or full reregulation.

I don't hold out much hope under NECA

(06 Apr 2025, 10:10 am)Economic505 wrote Bus Franchising is the way forward, like Manchester or London, or full reregulation.

There's not going to be any routes left by the time they get to franchising at this rate.

(06 Apr 2025, 11:05 am)deanmachine wrote There's not going to be any routes left by the time they get to franchising at this rate.

They need to skip the consultation stage. Just get on with it . Things move at a snails pace in this country.

(06 Apr 2025, 2:35 pm)Economic505 wrote They need to skip the consultation stage. Just get on with it . Things move at a snails pace in this country.

Nope. Hard disagree on this. I don't like the direction of travel of the status quo, but NECA has to prove they are competent when getting thier hands dirty, rather than just being able to type up swanky policy papers - otherwise the cost to use, the tax payer - will be massive if they get thier sums wrong, Like QCS!

(06 Apr 2025, 2:45 pm)DeltaMan wrote Nope. Hard disagree on this. I don't like the direction of travel of the status quo, but NECA has to prove they are competent when getting thier hands dirty, rather than just being able to type up swanky policy papers - otherwise the cost to use, the tax payer - will be massive if they get thier sums wrong, Like QCS!

Definitely agree here, sick of seeing stuff like this 18 being moaned about, let's be blunt it's an absolute ridiculous route, as it is goes from no-where to no-where, then does a 270 degree at Seaburn to top off the stupidity of the route.

If we had councillors funding every ridiculous route like it then it'll be bleeding money and the money has to come from somewhere and it certainly won't be coming from central government.

There's clearly a school bus needed but the best way to deal with this would be extend the GNE 62 at both ends and do a full loop, similar to: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.89503...25!1m0!3e0

It'd literally solve most the problems and create an actual useful through route, creating some key links to the hospital and or Doxford Park imo. Should be only 1 PVR aswell.

(06 Apr 2025, 3:52 pm)Storx wrote Definitely agree here, sick of seeing stuff like this 18 being moaned about, let's be blunt it's an absolute ridiculous route, as it is goes from no-where to no-where, then does a 270 degree at Seaburn to top off the stupidity of the route.

If we had councillors funding every ridiculous route like it then it'll be bleeding money and the money has to come from somewhere and it certainly won't be coming from central government.

There's clearly a school bus needed but the best way to deal with this would be extend the GNE 62 at both ends and do a full loop, similar to: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.89503...25!1m0!3e0

It'd literally solve most the problems and create an actual useful through route, creating some key links to the hospital and or Doxford Park imo. Should be only 1 PVR aswell.

I agree, soon as they put it via Pennywell etc, dropped to hourly, the route was doomed, just surprised it took them so long to drop the route, if people used it, it wouldn't be going....

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(06 Apr 2025, 3:52 pm)Storx wrote Definitely agree here, sick of seeing stuff like this 18 being moaned about, let's be blunt it's an absolute ridiculous route, as it is goes from no-where to no-where, then does a 270 degree at Seaburn to top off the stupidity of the route.

If we had councillors funding every ridiculous route like it then it'll be bleeding money and the money has to come from somewhere and it certainly won't be coming from central government.

There's clearly a school bus needed but the best way to deal with this would be extend the GNE 62 at both ends and do a full loop, similar to: https://www.google.com/maps/dir/54.89503...25!1m0!3e0

It'd literally solve most the problems and create an actual useful through route, creating some key links to the hospital and or Doxford Park imo. Should be only 1 PVR aswell.

Probs won't even be used though, thats the problem, would just be another waste of council money.

(06 Apr 2025, 4:46 pm)Michael wrote I agree, soon as they put it via Pennywell etc, dropped to hourly, the route was doomed, just surprised it took them so long to drop the route, if people used it, it wouldn't be going....

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Probs won't even be used though, thats the problem, would just be another waste of council money.

Aye exactly, worrying times if the NECA won't drop routes which aren't profitable and clearly don't work. It's just going to result in the exact same problems as now where the network doesn't work for today and everyone is scared to make real changes because the councillors will be up in arms because 1 person uses the route whereas 10 other people in the same town are using a car because that one vocal person needs his bus to some obscure place.

Yeah you're probably right, but least they're trying something new. If it doesn't work then it goes, as there's no demand and people will just have to deal with it.

(06 Apr 2025, 7:54 pm)Storx wrote Aye exactly, worrying times if the NECA won't drop routes which aren't profitable and clearly don't work. It's just going to result in the exact same problems as now where the network doesn't work for today and everyone is scared to make real changes because the councillors will be up in arms because 1 person uses the route whereas 10 other people in the same town are using a car because that one vocal person needs his bus to some obscure place.

Yeah you're probably right, but least they're trying something new. If it doesn't work then it goes, as there's no demand and people will just have to deal with it.

I mean, I used the 18 alot between Jan and Feb but haven't since then however when I did use it, i go on at around 11am (weekday) and it maybe picked up between 4 or 5 people between Springwell and Queen Alex bridge.


Thats the exact problem with all the routes in Sunderland, half of them are just a waste and soon as the companies want to do changes the council/locals etc kick off saying "i need the service" but I bet half of them don't even use the route.


Would be interesting if it became a contract service though and have someone other than Stagecoach run it.

The cuts does mean Sunderland are likely to lose more buses, probs the ADL E200.


I mean you're right, its different and new, look how decent the 599 is doing since its launch.

(06 Apr 2025, 10:18 pm)Michael wrote I mean, I used the 18 alot between Jan and Feb but haven't since then however when I did use it, i go on at around 11am (weekday) and it maybe picked up between 4 or 5 people between Springwell and Queen Alex bridge.


Thats the exact problem with all the routes in Sunderland, half of them are just a waste and soon as the companies want to do changes the council/locals etc kick off saying "i need the service" but I bet half of them don't even use the route.


Would be interesting if it became a contract service though and have someone other than Stagecoach run it.

The cuts does mean Sunderland are likely to lose more buses, probs the ADL E200.


I mean you're right, its different and new, look how decent the 599 is doing since its launch.

Yeah definitely, personally I think it's a shame that Stagecoach and NECA haven't worked together as it seems like they've just ignored Stagecoach's warnings about profits.

Working together they could easily done something like splitting the 8 at Pennywell and having one bus an hour doing the 18 to Gilley Law and the other still going to South Hylton and rerouting the 99 to Seaburn instead of Castletown since the 599 already exists doing it.

Would've been a subsidy for 1 bus and actually made one of the routes (99) actually useful. The 8 clearly isn't doing well either so would've killed two birds with one stone and the 18 doesn't run on a Sunday or evenings anyway so there's no issues there either.

(06 Apr 2025, 10:46 pm)Storx wrote Yeah definitely, personally I think it's a shame that Stagecoach and NECA haven't worked together as it seems like they've just ignored Stagecoach's warnings about profits.

Working together they could easily done something like splitting the 8 at Pennywell and having one bus an hour doing the 18 to Gilley Law and the other still going to South Hylton and rerouting the 99 to Seaburn instead of Castletown since the 599 already exists doing it.

Would've been a subsidy for 1 bus and actually made one of the routes (99) actually useful. The 8 clearly isn't doing well either so would've killed two birds with one stone and the 18 doesn't run on a Sunday or evenings anyway so there's no issues there either.

Could do one massive loop service.....


99 - Hourly - Monday to Saturday - 7am till 6pm -

Sunderland - Roker - Seaburn - Fulwell - Southwick - Hylton Castle - Castletown - Hylton Retail Park - Pallion - Hospital - Barnes Park - Gilley Law - Thorney Close - Grindon - Pennywell ALDI - Grindon - Pennywell - Pallion - Hylton Retail Park - Castletown - Hylton Castle - Southwick - Fulwell - Seaburn - Roker - Sunderland.


I mean it is a long route and probs would never happen and not even sure how long it would take etc

Maybe take a risk on it?, you never know.

(06 Apr 2025, 11:17 pm)Michael wrote Could do one massive loop service.....


99 - Hourly - Monday to Saturday - 7am till 6pm -

Sunderland - Roker - Seaburn - Fulwell - Southwick - Hylton Castle - Castletown - Hylton Retail Park - Pallion - Hospital - Barnes Park - Gilley Law - Thorney Close - Grindon - Pennywell ALDI - Grindon - Pennywell - Pallion - Hylton Retail Park - Castletown - Hylton Castle - Southwick - Fulwell - Seaburn - Roker - Sunderland.


I mean it is a long route and probs would never happen and not even sure how long it would take etc

Maybe take a risk on it?, you never know.

Aye could do. See personally I think I'd try and integrate the 18 from Seaburn to Sunderland into a new E route so you'd have something like

E1: 18 from Sunderland to Seaburn, current E1
E2: No Changes
E6: No Changes
New Route: Current E1 running direct via Coast Road in South Shields. 

It would be a good use of BSIP funds and would give areas which are currently poorly served and enhance the Sunderland to Roker and South Shields Funfair to South Shields frequencies which really struggle in the Summer. The new route would be ideal for open top buses aswell.

You've got 5 minutes or so to play around with the new route if there was a little diversion you could think of. I'm unsure what though.

(06 Apr 2025, 4:46 pm)No Michael wrote I agree, soon as they put it via Pennywell etc, dropped to hourly, the route was doomed, just surprised it took them so long to drop the route, if people used it, it wouldn't be going....

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Probs won't even be used though, thats the problem, would just be another waste of council money.

(07 Apr 2025, 7:25 am)Storx wrote Aye could do. See personally I think I'd try and integrate the 18 from Seaburn to Sunderland into a new E route so you'd have something like

E1: 18 from Sunderland to Seaburn, current E1
E2: No Changes
E6: No Changes
New Route: Current E1 running direct via Coast Road in South Shields. 

It would be a good use of BSIP funds and would give areas which are currently poorly served and enhance the Sunderland to Roker and South Shields Funfair to South Shields frequencies which really struggle in the Summer. The new route would be ideal for open top buses aswell.

You've got 5 minutes or so to play around with the new route if there was a little diversion you could think of. I'm unsure what though.

Park Avenue is currently served by the 18. Not sure how that could be fitted into an enhanced E1. However, a frequency increase would be welcome.

(07 Apr 2025, 7:35 am)Economic505 wrote Park Avenue is currently served by the 18. Not sure how that could be fitted into an enhanced E1. However, a frequency increase would be welcome.

Just an extra E route altogether so you'd have 8 E buses an hour doing 4 routes rather than 3. 4 BPH from South Shields Funfair to South Shields is probably well needed in the Summer anyway. It's arguably better than upping the E2 and E6 which are pretty much fine being every 30 minutes really.

(07 Apr 2025, 7:25 am)Storx wrote Aye could do. See personally I think I'd try and integrate the 18 from Seaburn to Sunderland into a new E route so you'd have something like

E1: 18 from Sunderland to Seaburn, current E1
E2: No Changes
E6: No Changes
New Route: Current E1 running direct via Coast Road in South Shields. 

It would be a good use of BSIP funds and would give areas which are currently poorly served and enhance the Sunderland to Roker and South Shields Funfair to South Shields frequencies which really struggle in the Summer. The new route would be ideal for open top buses aswell.

You've got 5 minutes or so to play around with the new route if there was a little diversion you could think of. I'm unsure what though.

You see, what I would do would be to keep the E's as combined every 10 mins (as otherwise, the frequency of Whitburn would be stupidly frequent). I would do this instead...
E1 - no change
E2 - no change
E6 - Routed through Roker park & park ave
19/20 - Pennywell to Seaburn

To not allow frequency reductions and make clean headways between buses I would extend the 20 onto the nothern half of the 23 and also decrease it to every 20 mins. I would then also create a route 19 which follows the 20 in its entirity but when it gets to Fulwell turns right to go up Dykelands rd (to replace the E6 here). Dene Estate loop would be reduced by 1 bph but has the E2, 19 and (GNE) 24 surrounding it. This change keeps Fulwell Rd at 6 bph but with 10 min evenly spaced frequency and enables there to be spaced timings in between the 10/11 (enabling buses to not bunny hop each other all the way along Hylton Road) and creates a 5 min frequency [headway with 4x 20min freq routes]. 
This also allows and increase in bph for Dykelands Road by 1, Hylton Rd by 1, and Park Ave by 1.

Heck to replace the northern end of the 18 you could extend the 558 to Leechmere ASDA or Park Lane (via Pallion) with the 599 going to Leechmere...lots of options

(04 Apr 2025, 2:03 pm)F114TML wrote The way Lady Kim is going on, no.

She says it's a vital link but is just using it to bash Stagecoach and not said anything I can see about maintaining it.

If SNE were that bothered about the route and have been letting NECA know about its predicament for 2 or 3 years, then this cancellation is on them.

They're blaming NINO increases, but they have had many a year to sort out the ultimate issue (which is patronage and bums on seats) via marketing, route amendments, pricing offers etc. 
They've chose not to and I do not think it should be down to NECA to fill the gaps left by a private company unwilling or unable to do something about it.

McGuiness is an utter waste of space. People can decry the 18/18A going, but user numbers have always been low, the type of cross town links never gain much traction, without any form of support it is pointless.

(07 Apr 2025, 5:01 pm)logidoodah wrote You see, what I would do would be to keep the E's as combined every 10 mins (as otherwise, the frequency of Whitburn would be stupidly frequent). I would do this instead...
E1 - no change
E2 - no change
E6 - Routed through Roker park & park ave
19/20 - Pennywell to Seaburn

To not allow frequency reductions and make clean headways between buses I would extend the 20 onto the nothern half of the 23 and also decrease it to every 20 mins. I would then also create a route 19 which follows the 20 in its entirity but when it gets to Fulwell turns right to go up Dykelands rd (to replace the E6 here). Dene Estate loop would be reduced by 1 bph but has the E2, 19 and (GNE) 24 surrounding it. This change keeps Fulwell Rd at 6 bph but with 10 min evenly spaced frequency and enables there to be spaced timings in between the 10/11 (enabling buses to not bunny hop each other all the way along Hylton Road) and creates a 5 min frequency [headway with 4x 20min freq routes]. 
This also allows and increase in bph for Dykelands Road by 1, Hylton Rd by 1, and Park Ave by 1.

Heck to replace the northern end of the 18 you could extend the 558 to Leechmere ASDA or Park Lane (via Pallion) with the 599 going to Leechmere...lots of options

Yeah not a bad shout either to be honest. You're right there is loads of options really. I do kind of think there should be 4 BPH between South Shields and the beach though, what route it is that does that, then who knows hence the E suggestion. I do agree that Whitburn would be stupidly overbussed though.

Mind if they did that 19/20 I wish they'd number it the 6 and 7 or something instead. Confusing as hell having 2, 20's in the same city which serve the same streets and the GNE 20 is more known than the SNE one. Similar argument with the 8 aswell which literally serve the same bus stops (SNE 8 and GNE 8A)

(07 Apr 2025, 7:59 pm)Storx wrote Yeah not a bad shout either to be honest. You're right there is loads of options really. I do kind of think there should be 4 BPH between South Shields and the beach though, what route it is that does that, then who knows hence the E suggestion. I do agree that Whitburn would be stupidly overbussed though.

Mind if they did that 19/20 I wish they'd number it the 6 and 7 or something instead. Confusing as hell having 2, 20's in the same city which serve the same streets and the GNE 20 is more known than the SNE one. Similar argument with the 8 aswell which literally serve the same bus stops (SNE 8 and GNE 8A)

Pre 1986, Sunderland to Pennywell was the 120 and upon deregulation became Sunderland Busways service 20. Go ahead Northern Sunderland to Durham service stayed as the 220 for a good few years after deregulation, until they renumbered it to service 20. However, it would be sensible to return to unique numbering at some point in the future.

(07 Apr 2025, 8:26 pm)Economic505 wrote Pre 1986, Sunderland to Pennywell was the 120 and upon deregulation became Sunderland Busways service 20. Go ahead Northern Sunderland to Durham service stayed as the 220 for a good few years after deregulation, until they renumbered it to service 20. However, it would be sensible to return to unique numbering at some point in the future.

Thanks for that, was curious how the 20 came in with Stagecoach as their Sunderland services are generally lower numbers, excluding that and the 23. Definitely need some tidying up of duplicates though in the same area as it's confusing as an understatement for people who aren't used to buses, especially when they serve the same bus stop.

(07 Apr 2025, 8:56 pm)Storx wrote Thanks for that, was curious how the 20 came in with Stagecoach as their Sunderland services are generally lower numbers, excluding that and the 23. Definitely need some tidying up of duplicates though in the same area as it's confusing as an understatement for people who aren't used to buses, especially when they serve the same bus stop.

They’re only mostly lower numbers as it happens to be the ones left after decades of merging and cutting routes.  At it’s peak, Busways operated numbers 2-29/31/32/104 (and a few other resurrected 100 prefixed numbers in competition with TWOC) in Sunderland.  Many of them went in 1999 when they combined into cross City routes to coincide with the opening of the Interchange (which they only served for a short time).  Then more went when traditional minibus routes were culled.

The 3 is what used to be the 2 & 27
The 4 is the old 4, 104 and bits of the 3 and 12.
The 8 is the 8/9 and part of the 14/14A.
The 13 is the old 13, 28, 29 (and 12).
The 16 is the old 5 & 16 (and part of the 6 & 7 from Witherwack).
The 18/18A is the remnant of the old 18/19 Grindon Circle, with a bit of the old 6 route mixed in (esp 18A).
The 10, 11, 20 & 23 are pretty much what they always were, with some routing changes over the years.
 
So from that lot, the old 15, 17, 21, 22 (open topper), 24, 25, 26, 31 have been lost entirely as have significant chunks of the old 6, 7, 14, 18, 19.
I’m sure I’ve probably missed a few as well.

(07 Apr 2025, 9:23 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote They’re only mostly lower numbers as it happens to be the ones left after decades of merging and cutting routes.  At it’s peak, Busways operated numbers 2-29/31/32/104 (and a few other resurrected 100 prefixed numbers in competition with TWOC) in Sunderland.  Many of them went in 1999 when they combined into cross City routes to coincide with the opening of the Interchange (which they only served for a short time).  Then more went when traditional minibus routes were culled.

The 3 is what used to be the 2 & 27
The 4 is the old 4, 104 and bits of the 3 and 12.
The 8 is the 8/9 and part of the 14/14A.
The 13 is the old 13, 28, 29 (and 12).
The 16 is the old 5 & 16 (and part of the 6 & 7 from Witherwack).
The 18/18A is the remnant of the old 18/19 Grindon Circle, with a bit of the old 6 route mixed in (esp 18A).
The 10, 11, 20 & 23 are pretty much what they always were, with some routing changes over the years.
 
So from that lot, the old 15, 17, 21, 22 (open topper), 24, 25, 26, 31 have been lost entirely as have significant chunks of the old 6, 7, 14, 18, 19.
I’m sure I’ve probably missed a few as well.

Once the 18 goes, it won’t be long before service 8 is ditched and were left with SNE services you can count on two hands.

(07 Apr 2025, 9:44 pm)Economic505 wrote Once the 18 goes, it won’t be long before service 8 is ditched and were left with SNE services you can count on two hands.

South Shields is going a similar way, losing the 17 altogether, the 12 is dropping to one and hour, 3 & 4 are changing from circular to terminating at Biddick Hall.
All that's left is 
3 ,4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 , 18 , 30, X20 and Nexus 1 & 2 on weekend mornings