(04 Mar 2026, 2:48 pm)F114TML wrote So... the X82?

Also most people get off along West Road apparently, speaking to Walker drivers.

Near enough. Although actually terminating at Dumpling Hall or Chapel House as say an 'X40' to give people living furthest away from the City Centre a more direct link during Peak Times. This would be particularly helpful when Stagecoach constantly allocate single decker vehicles onto the 12/22/39/40/62/63 it seems & the bus is most likely overcrowded very quickly, particularly at busy times.

A little like the SuperLoop in London, where the bus only stops at select stops, opposed to every single stop as a typical local bus. Also, if it were to be a successful initiative, something that may be feasible to operate during the day aswell...

(04 Mar 2026, 4:53 pm)S830OFT wrote A little like the SuperLoop in London, where the bus only stops at select stops, opposed to every single stop as a typical local bus. Also, if it were to be a successful initiative, something that may be feasible to operate during the day aswell...

So... the Fastlines?

(04 Mar 2026, 4:53 pm)S830OFT wrote Near enough. Although actually terminating at Dumpling Hall or Chapel House as say an 'X40' to give people living furthest away from the City Centre a more direct link during Peak Times. This would be particularly helpful when Stagecoach constantly allocate single decker vehicles onto the 12/22/39/40/62/63 it seems & the bus is most likely overcrowded very quickly, particularly at busy times.

A little like the SuperLoop in London, where the bus only stops at select stops, opposed to every single stop as a typical local bus. Also, if it were to be a successful initiative, something that may be feasible to operate during the day aswell...

There used to be an X80/X81 until early 2000s that operated to Dumpling Hall & West Denton Park that were withdrawn and then replaced by the 39 & 10!

(04 Mar 2026, 4:43 am)F114TML wrote The won't take the risk because (feel like a broken record here) why invest in sonething you're very likely going to have taken off you very soon? 

Plus, the group is owned by an investment firm, who want it to look as good as possible on paper.

But operators have had 30 years to take the risk and/or innovate.
The looming franchise agreement didn't exist back in the 80s or 90s.
There was no Kim McGuiness politics back in the 2000s and it was only in the 2010's, that QCS was mooted.

(04 Mar 2026, 7:47 pm)Andreos1 wrote But operators have had 30 years to take the risk and/or innovate.
The looming franchise agreement didn't exist back in the 80s or 90s.
There was no Kim McGuiness politics back in the 2000s and it was only in the 2010's, that QCS was mooted.

May be a bit of rose tinted memory here but to be fair I think in the 90s there was a fair bit of innovation, at least in terms of reacting to competition.  Even the 00s now dont seem that bad - to me it was around the 2010s onwards when the stupid hub and spoke model became king and the networks were really decimated by cutting anything that wasnt a high freqency corridor into a hub.  No idea how much of it was driven by the spectre of franchising/QCS/whever it was before that, but the timings certainly line up.

(04 Mar 2026, 5:57 pm)Coastliner700 wrote There used to be an X80/X81 until early 2000s that operated to Dumpling Hall & West Denton Park that were withdrawn and then replaced by the 39 & 10!

Didnt they become the 80/81 for a bit before complete withdrawl?

Yes they were withdrawn around late 2006 / early 2007.

80 - Kingston Park - Dumpling Hall - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photog...1846495403
81 - Hollywood Ave - Dumpling Hall - https://www.flickr.com/photos/gjm-photog...1846484708

(04 Mar 2026, 8:05 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote May be a bit of rose tinted memory here but to be fair I think in the 90s there was a fair bit of innovation, at least in terms of reacting to competition. Even the 00s now dont seem that bad - to me it was around the 2010s onwards when the stupid hub and spoke model became king and the networks were really decimated by cutting anything that wasnt a high freqency corridor into a hub.  No idea how much of it was driven by the spectre of franchising/QCS/whever it was before that, but the timings certainly line up.

I'm not sure painting a teenage bus blue and making the competition in Newcastle disappear was that innovative.
Greedy? Of course.
Like a dog marking it's territory and trying to scare away anything that comes close? Definitely. 

I've got the same opinion of goings on in Darlo too.

I remember the excitement of buses racing each other and drivers really buying in to the whole rivalry/must win at all costs mentality.
But innovative? Nah.

So the X24, X34 and X55 weren't innovative?

X55 did not last long enough to be able to determine it's full potential.

Also the fact it was a Saturday only route and just went to Greatham via Hartlepool, opposed to continuing to Stockton for all journeys may have had made it a little more successful, although would have then been competing with the X9/X10 & X12...

Hartlepool does desperately need more links. They had 5 buses p/h to Sunderland in 2019 (23/55/X6) - now nothing without changing buses at Peterlee, there is certainly an opportunity to put something in that gap. Same with a bus to Newcastle or indeed a faster bus to Durham that doesn't take 85 minutes alike the 24/58/59...

I recall when the Arriva 57A existed as a commercial route, it was seen as 'the fast bus' between Durham and Hartlepool taking just under 1 hour. I don't know how the 59 which directly replaced this route has got the extra 25 minutes from...

(05 Mar 2026, 8:11 am)S830OFT wrote X55 did not last long enough to be able to determine it's full potential.

Also the fact it was a Saturday only route and just went to Greatham via Hartlepool, opposed to continuing to Stockton for all journeys may have had made it a little more successful, although would have then been competing with the X9/X10 & X12...

Hartlepool does desperately need more links. They had 5 buses p/h to Sunderland in 2019 (23/55/X6) - now nothing without changing buses at Peterlee, there is certainly an opportunity to put something in that gap. Same with a bus to Newcastle or indeed a faster bus to Durham that doesn't take 85 minutes alike the 24/58/59...

I recall when the Arriva 57A existed as a commercial route, it was seen as 'the fast bus' between Durham and Hartlepool taking just under 1 hour. I don't know how the 59 which directly replaced this route has got the extra 25 minutes from...

The Hartlepool to Sunderland (direct)bus journey was far too long. I only used it when Northern Rail were on strike. Service 23 didn’t operate after 17.30 , so on match days returning, I was forced to change at Peterlee, another ball ache. The trains not perfect but it’s only 25 minutes.

(05 Mar 2026, 5:57 am)F114TML wrote So the X24, X34 and X55 weren't innovative?

They were new and different to what existed previously. 
But that's 3 routes.

Split the average over the last 40 years and you've got a potentially innovative route launched every 13.3 years.

(05 Mar 2026, 8:11 am)S830OFT wrote X55 did not last long enough to be able to determine it's full potential.

Also the fact it was a Saturday only route and just went to Greatham via Hartlepool, opposed to continuing to Stockton for all journeys may have had made it a little more successful, although would have then been competing with the X9/X10 & X12...

Hartlepool does desperately need more links. They had 5 buses p/h to Sunderland in 2019 (23/55/X6) - now nothing without changing buses at Peterlee, there is certainly an opportunity to put something in that gap. Same with a bus to Newcastle or indeed a faster bus to Durham that doesn't take 85 minutes alike the 24/58/59...

I recall when the Arriva 57A existed as a commercial route, it was seen as 'the fast bus' between Durham and Hartlepool taking just under 1 hour. I don't know how the 59 which directly replaced this route has got the extra 25 minutes from...

There's 2 TPH from Hartlepool to Sunderland / Newcastle and 1 TPH from Seaton Carew to Sunderland / Newcastle plus Grand Central on top of that. 

The connections should be to the train station with connecting tickets, not direct buses. Anyone sane is going to use the train as the bus is always going to take ages.

I know it's not Stagecoach, but there seriously needs to be a look at the 20/20A/X20/32/61/204/204A/208 though. 

Something like this:


Would be a hell of a lot better imo:

There's absolutely no need for 6 BPH from Durham to Sunderland doing the same corridor. The only losers are the Raintons who lose half there buses but they're small villages. Hopefully, see changes in the future because there's lots of corridors the same. The X6/23/61 being another one.

90's was a belta time for buses, virtually a bus to anywhere and how much was a dayrover, like £3/£4?, child single 25p adult single 90p/£1, i might only be 32 but its amazing what memories stick, also remember Chillingham Road  being saturated with buses and rarely ran late, and Heaton Road had more choice than just the 18 to a random bus terminal in Walker, and as much as i dont like Sunderland, its sad to see whats become of their virtually non-existent (Stagecoach) network

(05 Mar 2026, 9:50 am)Andreos1 wrote They were new and different to what existed previously. 
But that's 3 routes.

Split the average over the last 40 years and you've got a potentially innovative route launched every 13.3 years.

So now you think there has only been three "new" innovative routes in the North East since 1986?  Right...

(05 Mar 2026, 4:04 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote So now you think there has only been three "new" innovative routes in the North East since 1986?  Right...

No, I never said that. 

I referred back to the 3 examples that were shared.

But, if there were more, I'd love to hear about them.

(05 Mar 2026, 6:36 pm)Andreos1 wrote No, I never said that. 

I referred back to the 3 examples that were shared.

But, if there were more, I'd love to hear about them.

Not sure what point you are trying to argue here when you literally worked out an avergae of 1 in 13 years, or if you're just arguing as an end in itself.  

Make your own decision on what is or isnt innovative - my view remains that drereg through much of the 90s and in some ways into early 00s saw a heck of a lot more variety/choice/links/innovation/new services/trying new things than the period from 2010s onward.  Your view is different.  That's fine.

(05 Mar 2026, 8:22 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote Not sure what point you are trying to argue here when you literally worked out an avergae of 1 in 13 years, or if you're just arguing as an end in itself.  

Make your own decision on what is or isnt innovative - my view remains that drereg through much of the 90s and in some ways into early 00s saw a heck of a lot more variety/choice/links/innovation/new services/trying new things than the period from 2010s onward.  Your view is different.  That's fine.

I'm just trying to see/hear about these examples of innovation.
Nothing more. Nothing less. 

We've had 3 potentials so far.

(05 Mar 2026, 8:48 pm)Andreos1 wrote I'm just trying to see/hear about these examples of innovation.
Nothing more. Nothing less. 

We've had 3 potentials so far.

So a few examples of innovation for Sunderland from the period I mentioned - 5 to Boldon Asda, new routings serving East Herrington on 4/5, 17 (various incarnations), 21, open top 22, 25, open top 26 (and the more recent incarnation as 19), E3, E6, X1, X2, X27-X29, M39-M41.  All of these were introduced post rereg through the 90s with most creating new or faster links.  They survived varying lengths of time.  Compare that to the last 15 ish years.  You could argue the whole Favourite operation in County Durham is another example.  I am sure you can come up with many others from other parts of the region if you really want to see/hear more examples.

(05 Mar 2026, 9:02 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote So a few examples of innovation for Sunderland from the period I mentioned - 5 to Boldon Asda, new routings serving East Herrington on 4/5, 17 (various incarnations), 21, open top 22, 25, open top 26 (and the more recent incarnation as 19), E3, E6, X1, X2, X27-X29, M39-M41.  All of these were introduced post rereg through the 90s with most creating new or faster links.  They survived varying lengths of time.  Compare that to the last 15 ish years.  You could argue the whole Favourite operation in County Durham is another example.  I am sure you can come up with many others from other parts of the region if you really want to see/hear more examples.

The late 80s and most of the 90s did see loads of new services by Busways. I agree the last 15 years have been stagnant at best, with a managed decline . Pick up a PTE early 80s timetable or a 1990s Busways route map, or. gNE map ( recently purchased on EBay, just shows how much all have declined , along with GNE and Arriva. New entrants to the industry like GCT are absolute cowboys.

(03 Mar 2026, 9:27 pm)S830OFT wrote There's always the option of extending the 4 over to Boldon Asda from Downhill, to offer connections to services 30 to South Shields & X34 to Newcastle.

Unfortunately, the biggest problem I find with Stagecoach in the North East is there just is not any innovation by them to start new routes, unless of course they are heavily subsidised & contracted routes...

I’m a bit late jumping into the party but I’d heavily argue Stagecoach have showed the most commercial innovation out of all the major North East Operator's. The Seasider between NorthShields and Whitley Bay had great potential but thwarted by COVID. Obviously the X24 has been their major success story in recent years too. Although the X55 wasn’t a success they still made a go of it. And more recently as well the 37 to Cramlington seems to be performing relatively well too. Is there room for more? Absolutely. But as things stand Stagecoach have certainly taken more successful commercial innovative risks than any other North East Operators in the last decade. I’d argue the next step would be to introduce a Sunderland-Hartlepool-Middlesbrough service to bridge that gap, perhaps numbered X14 or X44 to help bridge the gap and allow for the Hartlepool 1 to be ran more efficiently.

(05 Mar 2026, 9:39 pm)220631612 wrote I’m a bit late jumping into the party but I’d heavily argue Stagecoach have showed the most commercial innovation out of all the major North East Operator's. The Seasider between NorthShields and Whitley Bay had great potential but thwarted by COVID. Obviously the X24 has been their major success story in recent years too. Although the X55 wasn’t a success they still made a go of it. And more recently as well the 37 to Cramlington seems to be performing relatively well too. Is there room for more? Absolutely. But as things stand Stagecoach have certainly taken more successful commercial innovative risks than any other North East Operators in the last decade. I’d argue the next step would be to introduce a Sunderland-Hartlepool-Middlesbrough service to bridge that gap, perhaps numbered X14 or X44 to help bridge the gap and allow for the Hartlepool 1 to be ran more efficiently.

Have to admit it did strike me as insane when in Eldon Square around the time of Hartlepool Tall Ships a couple of years ago seeing Nexus signs proudly stating "There are no direct bus services to Hartlepool" then giving you options of changes at Dalton Park or wherever.  I dont have a clue how direct/quick/frequent/cheap rail options are but the fact there's no direct bus service to key towns from cities like Newcastle and (even less links) Sunderland is testament to how inadequate the bus network is these days to support any meaningful level of modal shift.

Don't get the obsession with buses from Sunderland and Newcastle to Hartlepool. There's next to zero demand wanting to go there, and there's 2 trains for the few people who want to go to Newcastle / Sunderland.

The East / West links are the problem area around there, since there's literally nothing - at all, if you want to head South of Durham without seriously doubling back.

Darlington -> Newton Aycliffe -> Sedgefield -> Peterlee -> Sunderland
Bishop Auckland -> Sedgefield -> Hartlepool

Are the serious gaps imo.

Sadly Arriva were willing to sort out part of the top one with the X22 changes, so it must be close to being commercially viable, but the councillors were more arsed about the links to Stockton, which isn't busy. This is where taxpayer funds should be going as Arriva clearly see something between Darlington and Sedgefield so why not fund the short bus through...

(05 Mar 2026, 9:02 pm)stagecoachbusdepot wrote So a few examples of innovation for Sunderland from the period I mentioned - 5 to Boldon Asda, new routings serving East Herrington on 4/5, 17 (various incarnations), 21, open top 22, 25, open top 26 (and the more recent incarnation as 19), E3, E6, X1, X2, X27-X29, M39-M41.  All of these were introduced post rereg through the 90s with most creating new or faster links.  They survived varying lengths of time.  Compare that to the last 15 ish years.  You could argue the whole Favourite operation in County Durham is another example.  I am sure you can come up with many others from other parts of the region if you really want to see/hear more examples.

Wouldn't really say the E6, it was put on to compete with Catch-A-Bus' 6.

Looking at Go North East, pretty sure the X10 didn't exist in 1986 (don't recall seeing it in the May 1986 timetable I've seen) - do please correct if I'm wrong.

(06 Mar 2026, 8:02 am)F114TML wrote Wouldn't really say the E6, it was put on to compete with Catch-A-Bus' 6.

Looking at Go North East, pretty sure the X10 didn't exist in 1986 (don't recall seeing it in the May 1986 timetable I've seen) - do please correct if I'm wrong.

There was no fast service (X10) to Middlesbrough, it was the X1 which called at Chester, Durham and Sedgefield....

(06 Mar 2026, 8:51 am)Retro Nero wrote There was no fast service (X10) to Middlesbrough, it was the X1 which called at Chester, Durham and Sedgefield....

When the X10 ran in the early and mid nineties I seem to remember it being jointly operated by Northern, Tees and United, and buses ran the X10 in one direction and the X1 in the other.

(06 Mar 2026, 9:46 am)missedbus wrote When the X10 ran in the early and mid nineties I seem to remember it being jointly operated by Northern, Tees and United, and buses ran the X10 in one direction and the X1 in the other.

Branded Tynelink as on this United Olympian 

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/image...tA1PZn-d04&s=10

(06 Mar 2026, 9:46 am)missedbus wrote When the X10 ran in the early and mid nineties I seem to remember it being jointly operated by Northern, Tees and United, and buses ran the X10 in one direction and the X1 in the other.

Sorry, my mistake there was an X10 but I think it was an even more limited stop than it is now , if I remember it was Newcastle, I think Heworth and Testos then direct to Middlesbrough ( may have stopped at Stockton) unsure, can anyone else help on this one

(06 Mar 2026, 8:02 am)F114TML wrote Wouldn't really say the E6, it was put on to compete with Catch-A-Bus' 6.

Looking at Go North East, pretty sure the X10 didn't exist in 1986 (don't recall seeing it in the May 1986 timetable I've seen) - do please correct if I'm wrong.

The E3 was put on to compete against TWOC X2, the X27/X28/X29 was put on to compete against Redby 27/28/29


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(06 Mar 2026, 8:23 pm)cbma06 wrote The E3 was put on to compete against TWOC X2, the X27/X28/X29 was put on to compete against Redby 27/28/29


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I loved those days. Timetable updates nearly every month. Trips to the Busways travel
Shop on Fawcett Street to get the new paper timetables!