Nexus secured service consultations - May 2023
Nexus secured service consultations - May 2023
(16 Feb 2023, 9:16 am)Adrian Me too, but I'm also surprised about the passenger numbers:I think thats quite a bit for a secured service.
"During September 2022 an average of 6 customers travelled on each of the Monday – Saturday evening trips. An average of 7 customers travelled on each of the Sunday trips."
An average of 6 or 7 per trip could be considered quite good for secured services, and in this example, that's with competition across most of the route!
(16 Feb 2023, 9:16 am)Adrian Me too, but I'm also surprised about the passenger numbers:I think thats quite a bit for a secured service.
"During September 2022 an average of 6 customers travelled on each of the Monday – Saturday evening trips. An average of 7 customers travelled on each of the Sunday trips."
An average of 6 or 7 per trip could be considered quite good for secured services, and in this example, that's with competition across most of the route!
(16 Feb 2023, 9:16 am)Adrian Me too, but I'm also surprised about the passenger numbers:I swear some of the tendered routes in County Durham carry a near average of zero, but somehow keep running without any cuts/revisions whatsoever!
"During September 2022 an average of 6 customers travelled on each of the Monday – Saturday evening trips. An average of 7 customers travelled on each of the Sunday trips."
An average of 6 or 7 per trip could be considered quite good for secured services, and in this example, that's with competition across most of the route!
(16 Feb 2023, 9:16 am)Adrian Me too, but I'm also surprised about the passenger numbers:I swear some of the tendered routes in County Durham carry a near average of zero, but somehow keep running without any cuts/revisions whatsoever!
"During September 2022 an average of 6 customers travelled on each of the Monday – Saturday evening trips. An average of 7 customers travelled on each of the Sunday trips."
An average of 6 or 7 per trip could be considered quite good for secured services, and in this example, that's with competition across most of the route!
It's sounds a good number. But if you look at it another way, is it good tax payer value?
If they are carrying 6/7 people a trip and a trip takes an hour. Then it's costing between £6 and £8 per passenger, assuming an hourly cost of between £40 and £50 per hour per bus.
What should the subsidy per passenger be when judging viability? That is the question!
(16 Feb 2023, 6:08 pm)DeltaMan It's sounds a good number. But if you look at it another way, is it good tax payer value?£40/50 bus per hour?!
If they are carrying 6/7 people a trip and a trip takes an hour. Then it's costing between £6 and £8 per passenger, assuming an hourly cost of between £40 and £50 per hour per bus.
What should the subsidy per passenger be when judging viability? That is the question!
(16 Feb 2023, 6:08 pm)DeltaMan It's sounds a good number. But if you look at it another way, is it good tax payer value?£40/50 bus per hour?!
If they are carrying 6/7 people a trip and a trip takes an hour. Then it's costing between £6 and £8 per passenger, assuming an hourly cost of between £40 and £50 per hour per bus.
What should the subsidy per passenger be when judging viability? That is the question!
(16 Feb 2023, 6:08 pm)DeltaMan It's sounds a good number. But if you look at it another way, is it good tax payer value?
If they are carrying 6/7 people a trip and a trip takes an hour. Then it's costing between £6 and £8 per passenger, assuming an hourly cost of between £40 and £50 per hour per bus.
What should the subsidy per passenger be when judging viability? That is the question!
(16 Feb 2023, 6:08 pm)DeltaMan It's sounds a good number. But if you look at it another way, is it good tax payer value?
If they are carrying 6/7 people a trip and a trip takes an hour. Then it's costing between £6 and £8 per passenger, assuming an hourly cost of between £40 and £50 per hour per bus.
What should the subsidy per passenger be when judging viability? That is the question!
(16 Feb 2023, 8:29 pm)Adrian No, I don't think it represents good value for tax payers. The services should be ran in house instead of using private contractors, given the services only exist in the first place because the same operators didn't want to run them.Taking even a small profit element out you would be looking at well over £6 per passenger!
Buses are important infrastructure. They're important for work, job creation and to prevent social isolation. I'm more than happy with the authorities funding services, but not so the method of delivery.
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(16 Feb 2023, 8:29 pm)Adrian No, I don't think it represents good value for tax payers. The services should be ran in house instead of using private contractors, given the services only exist in the first place because the same operators didn't want to run them.Taking even a small profit element out you would be looking at well over £6 per passenger!
Buses are important infrastructure. They're important for work, job creation and to prevent social isolation. I'm more than happy with the authorities funding services, but not so the method of delivery.
Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk
(16 Feb 2023, 8:37 pm)DeltaMan Taking even a small profit element out you would be looking at well over £6 per passenger!
So what is an acceptable level of per passenger subsidy irrespective of operating model?
(16 Feb 2023, 8:37 pm)DeltaMan Taking even a small profit element out you would be looking at well over £6 per passenger!
So what is an acceptable level of per passenger subsidy irrespective of operating model?
(16 Feb 2023, 8:56 pm)Storx Surely it should be based on whether it's serving an area with no service at all which with the case of 79A is for large areas of the route vs how many passengers.I don't disagree, but we've all seen the article about the W2 in the Chronicle about what happens when a route is at risk!
There's too many routes ie the W2 which duplicates the 51 for most the route and the bit it doesn't it's a 5 minute walk to the Coast to do the same routes; or the 82 duplicating the 25/28 for most of the route. I understand that some people will have to change but the link is there.
Similar could be said for the 335 between Murton and North Shields which duplicates the 53/317 two routes which are struggling as it is with a max 5 minute walk for the stops not served.
Services like that should not be ran, personally for the 82 I'd rather see it run to Kibblesworth and maybe to Team Valley and create important links which are near impossible now with the loss of the 28A and restore the Kibblesworth link which has just been butchered. If it has less punters then so, it serves a purpose.
(16 Feb 2023, 8:56 pm)Storx Surely it should be based on whether it's serving an area with no service at all which with the case of 79A is for large areas of the route vs how many passengers.I don't disagree, but we've all seen the article about the W2 in the Chronicle about what happens when a route is at risk!
There's too many routes ie the W2 which duplicates the 51 for most the route and the bit it doesn't it's a 5 minute walk to the Coast to do the same routes; or the 82 duplicating the 25/28 for most of the route. I understand that some people will have to change but the link is there.
Similar could be said for the 335 between Murton and North Shields which duplicates the 53/317 two routes which are struggling as it is with a max 5 minute walk for the stops not served.
Services like that should not be ran, personally for the 82 I'd rather see it run to Kibblesworth and maybe to Team Valley and create important links which are near impossible now with the loss of the 28A and restore the Kibblesworth link which has just been butchered. If it has less punters then so, it serves a purpose.
(16 Feb 2023, 8:37 pm)DeltaMan Taking even a small profit element out you would be looking at well over £6 per passenger!
So what is an acceptable level of per passenger subsidy irrespective of operating model?
(16 Feb 2023, 8:37 pm)DeltaMan Taking even a small profit element out you would be looking at well over £6 per passenger!
So what is an acceptable level of per passenger subsidy irrespective of operating model?
The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
(16 Feb 2023, 9:29 pm)DeltaMan I don't disagree, but we've all seen the article about the W2 in the Chronicle about what happens when a route is at risk!
(16 Feb 2023, 9:29 pm)DeltaMan I don't disagree, but we've all seen the article about the W2 in the Chronicle about what happens when a route is at risk!
(16 Feb 2023, 9:16 am)Adrian Me too, but I'm also surprised about the passenger numbers:6 or 7 passengers travelling on a trip that takes an hour obviously doesn't meet Nexus criteria for Value For Money (maximum cost per passenger) - and especially as there is "competition across most of the route"
"During September 2022 an average of 6 customers travelled on each of the Monday – Saturday evening trips. An average of 7 customers travelled on each of the Sunday trips."
An average of 6 or 7 per trip could be considered quite good for secured services, and in this example, that's with competition across most of the route!
(16 Feb 2023, 9:16 am)Adrian Me too, but I'm also surprised about the passenger numbers:6 or 7 passengers travelling on a trip that takes an hour obviously doesn't meet Nexus criteria for Value For Money (maximum cost per passenger) - and especially as there is "competition across most of the route"
"During September 2022 an average of 6 customers travelled on each of the Monday – Saturday evening trips. An average of 7 customers travelled on each of the Sunday trips."
An average of 6 or 7 per trip could be considered quite good for secured services, and in this example, that's with competition across most of the route!
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.Exactly why journeys should be marked on timetables that are subsised (Inc part) like they used to be.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.Exactly why journeys should be marked on timetables that are subsised (Inc part) like they used to be.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:15 pm)Drifter60 The other thing is with secured or tendered bus routes, Joe Public don’t have any idea that certain services are only existing because of Council funding. Particularly outside of Nexus TW area. In Durham things like 71, 25, 28/29 are DCC contracts but they operate just like any other commercially ran GNE bus. Really it should be clear where private bus operators are wholly operating services on behalf of Councils/transport executive and also which are part subsidised and the purpose of the subsidy too.
(16 Feb 2023, 11:22 pm)Storx See personally I'd prefer the opposite where a bus is a bus, there's one ticket and you can use it on any bus and they're all branded the same. Whether it's Stagecoach, GoNorthEast, Arriva, GCT etc is irrelevant really and complicates things and is one of the massive benefits of London.
Imo the operators would actually benefit long term if they did it aswell as they've carved their own areas up so it's not like 95% of people have any choice who to use anyway and in the places they do it's just a more frequent service like the Coast Road changes.
It's not like someone really cares it's GNE or Arriva in the real world. It would make the council services more popular imo as most of them just don't exist online and if they do they're ran by weird operators without any ticket validity.
(17 Feb 2023, 12:16 am)Andreos1 And those things don't need to be too expensive either.
Whether it be a suffix/prefix ahead of the service number, indications or symbols on timetables or a display by the saloon door - there would clearly be confirmation that it's a subsidised service.
(16 Feb 2023, 11:22 pm)Storx See personally I'd prefer the opposite where a bus is a bus, there's one ticket and you can use it on any bus and they're all branded the same. Whether it's Stagecoach, GoNorthEast, Arriva, GCT etc is irrelevant really and complicates things and is one of the massive benefits of London.
Imo the operators would actually benefit long term if they did it aswell as they've carved their own areas up so it's not like 95% of people have any choice who to use anyway and in the places they do it's just a more frequent service like the Coast Road changes.
It's not like someone really cares it's GNE or Arriva in the real world. It would make the council services more popular imo as most of them just don't exist online and if they do they're ran by weird operators without any ticket validity.
(17 Feb 2023, 12:16 am)Andreos1 And those things don't need to be too expensive either.
Whether it be a suffix/prefix ahead of the service number, indications or symbols on timetables or a display by the saloon door - there would clearly be confirmation that it's a subsidised service.
(16 Feb 2023, 10:02 pm)Adrian I don't understand the argument you're making, if I'm honest! Shouldn't we treat public transport as infrastructure, just as we treat energy, water, healthcare, telecoms etc? We all rely on it, but seems to become a dirty word when we talk about spending public money on it.All I'm a asking for is an idea on how much you think is an acceptable level of subsidy per passenger per hour. A debate about how or who operates the buses isn't needed for that.
I've outlined already the reasons why it's important that it exists.
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(16 Feb 2023, 10:02 pm)Adrian I don't understand the argument you're making, if I'm honest! Shouldn't we treat public transport as infrastructure, just as we treat energy, water, healthcare, telecoms etc? We all rely on it, but seems to become a dirty word when we talk about spending public money on it.All I'm a asking for is an idea on how much you think is an acceptable level of subsidy per passenger per hour. A debate about how or who operates the buses isn't needed for that.
I've outlined already the reasons why it's important that it exists.
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